Dispatchers stopping trains for being early

[darryl0768healy]

Been having a few issues with player dispatchers stopping trains in the middle of nowhere because they're "early".

Today I was driving 1403 and it was only 4mins early, I got to Psary to find a red signal with no other trains around.

Player who was in Psary dispatch - bobbi_astar - decided to troll player trains by stopping them and holding them until they were late.

This player communicated you are early and aren't allowed to go.

I didn't have a passenger stop until SG.

To me the players that do that are deliberately trolling and not being very nice via the communications when trains ask for the green lights to head through. 

I know it seems Petty but people who do this really ruin the game play and immersion for other players if they're stopping trains, especially Priority pendolinos for their own fun.

This has been argued here before and lost players feel the same, unessesarily stopping just for the timetable is not preferred.

[DazT]

Probably not the same person, but this afternoon approaching Psary heading north towards Warsaw on an EC train, nothing for miles in front of me (I have simrail.app map on usually, good for route learning and knowing where you are) and I was running smack bang on time. Then Flashing green, single yellow, red.........okay what's this all about then, I stayed radio silent, 1 minute, 2 minutes, 3 minutes, 4 minutes, 5 minutes, cleared to substitute signal via the loop, oh great, and just as I was about to show my disapproval by going past the box with the horn blaring and the person (didn't catch the name) dropped off and it went to AI! I should of made a note of the time really and they could have pulled the server logs.

But also people can make genuine mistakes, blimey I've made a few bad regulating choices (deciding which train follows which) in my time in my professional capacity as an actual signalman here in the UK over the years, but I'd never go out of my way to spoil the enjoyment for anyone else. I'd rather sit at a red and be told, or if I'm the box as a dispatcher I try and let everyone know why they are at a red, for what reason and how long I expect them to be there for.

And I'm not infallible to mistakes as I found out myself this afternoon (well, yesterday now) where I messed up on Idzikowice panel, I missed one single end set of points which would have routed a northbound EC train onto the very back road of the yard and not the loop as I intended to put it. Luckily I was on the ball as soon as the route went in I instantly realised my mistake as going on the very back road you can't then get to Warsaw without some ingenious shunting. Even though the driver then got the signal and passed it nearly straight away I told the driver to bring his train to an immediate stand (train was doing about 10-15kmph), driver complied and come to a stand and I managed to blow the route on the panel, key the points for the correct movement and talked him onto the loop unsignalled. The whole intention was to get a late Pendolino past; disaster averted, everyone kept informed, everybody happy.

The flip side is I've noticed Pendolino's thinking that just because they hardly stop anywhere is a god given right to run, earlier and earlier and earlier and trying to break the land speed record. Some early trains are okay, but the problem is an early train you pass onto someone else then becomes their problem and early trains can then get in the way of other stuff that is running on time and the whole timetable collapses, with that some people far up the line might not have the experience (yet!) to be able to deal with mega early trains. Ones you can get away with are early freights from Lazy direction through Zawiercie towards Myszków as after about 10 minutes they exit the sim into a black hole.

If I think I can run a train early and it won't be a headache to anyone else then I will, but that's because I've tried to get round all the boxes one by one, learn them, learn the timetable a bit and know what works and what doesn't

Edited February 25, 2023 by DazT

[DazT]

Oh and if you're not booked to stop, and you're next to go, even if you're early then you'll go! Some places you do have to really read the timetable as if you're using simrail.app EDR timetable like I do it won't show trains on the 'Approaching' page unless they have physically struck in on the sim somewhere (which can be trouble if you're very close to a spawn location), so what you sometimes think is a reasonable move might not be if you've got it on that page as they may be one or several trains booked before it. What I do is drop it back to the 'All trains' tab and double check. After running several rotations of the timetable you get a feel for it and what should be where and when.

[Henry F]

Personally, I do that only to freight trains, passenger trains would have to stop until scheduled departure anyways. Even when I hold freight trains, I hold them so that they are the correct order, so as soon as the train before the freight in question clears, the freight is good to go ASAP.

 

If it is a player controlled train, I would inform them about the stop and given them a chance to proceed as is.

Edited February 25, 2023 by Henry F

[darryl0768healy]

7 minutes ago, Henry F said:

Personally, I do that only to freight trains, passenger trains would have to stop until scheduled departure anyways. Even when I hold freight trains, I hold them so that they are the correct order, so as soon as the train before the freight in question clears, the freight is good to go ASAP.

If it is a player controlled train, I would inform them about the stop and given them a chance to proceed as is.

And that's the correct way to do it but when there's no scheduled stop and ko other trains around then thats when it becomes annoying for other players to deliberately make you late.

[0x8000ffff]

I do not know how it is in other countries, but probably the same as in Poland, that the principle of ensuring the punctuality of train traffic applies. It applies to both train drivers and traffic dispatchers. The game scores the same amount of points for just passing through a checkpoint, regardless of the time spent driving through it, but this may change in the future. Therefore, earlier journeys may not pay off.
In another simulator I played, the traffic dispatcher was required to obtain permission to send the train out earlier. I know myself that when a train arrives at my station before the scheduled time, it is often a problem for me, because, for example, I do not have a track for it and it is standing on the route under the entrance semaphore. Please look at the problem also from the position of the traffic dispatcher. This simulation is not just about riding the train.

[DazT]

Sometimes you need to run slightly early, especially as a lot of boxes are still AI dispatchers and they bring you down on restrictive aspects as it is, let alone a human doing as well. I look at the map, see that it's not an AI running it and think "great, I should get greens here" - Doesn't always happen that way though!

[DazT]

3 minutes ago, 0x8000ffff said:

Therefore, earlier journeys may not pay off.

So long as the algorithm that doesn't penalise the driver too much who might be running early on a straight bit of railway, no junctions and is the next train anyway. With the EP08's on the EuroCity's it's very easy to tank along at 140kph even though you could in theory do the whole thing at about 120kph and still be ontime as the timings are very slack in places. I have been known to floor it out of Warsaw towards the CMK and then just knock the speed off as I know I can't get away any earlier from my first stop at Opoczno Południe at 2 minutes past the hour anyway.

[DazT]

1 hour ago, Henry F said:

passenger trains would have to stop until scheduled departure anyways

You'd like to think that, I did a short spell on Zawiercie panel earlier to waste some time in-between some EP08 drives I wanted to do, and whilst on there gave the signal in and the signal out for the **:37 EC towards Katowice, it came in early, and definitely stopped at about **:30, next thing I hear it roaring past the box at **:31!

I just thought "well it's your score you're affecting"!

 

[0x8000ffff]

However, I will persist on the punctuality rule, which means arriving/transit/departure on time, neither earlier nor later. As a traffic controller, I don't play anything in advance because I don't want to cause problems for my colleague at the next station. AMEN 😎

[Valkyrien]

I see two valid points in this thread:

1) Early trains cause dispatch problems, especially with dispatchers not having the full suite of signals at the moment, so they can't easily squirrel you away on a siding if they need to, especially if you're supposed to stop there for a 3 min layover in 20-30 minutes and the dispatcher only has two platforms to work with.

2) Throwing a fit for a train being 4 minutes early is taking the piss.

Please drive to the timetable, but +/-5 minutes is fine.

The current timetable seems to be balanced at running 10 kmh under any trains particular vmax, so letting the train target 5 or 10 kmh slow or fast from that target is how I tend to reel trains in.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Valkyrien

[Skully]

8 hours ago, 0x8000ffff said:

I do not know how it is in other countries, but probably the same as in Poland, that the principle of ensuring the punctuality of train traffic applies. It applies to both train drivers and traffic dispatchers. The game scores the same amount of points for just passing through a checkpoint, regardless of the time spent driving through it, but this may change in the future. Therefore, earlier journeys may not pay off.
In another simulator I played, the traffic dispatcher was required to obtain permission to send the train out earlier. I know myself that when a train arrives at my station before the scheduled time, it is often a problem for me, because, for example, I do not have a track for it and it is standing on the route under the entrance semaphore. Please look at the problem also from the position of the traffic dispatcher. This simulation is not just about riding the train.

First out of curiosity, what simulator are you talking about?

Second, I don't see any changes upcoming for a different point distribution. If dispatching can affect point scoring of a driver all hell will break lose.

7 hours ago, 0x8000ffff said:

However, I will persist on the punctuality rule, which means arriving/transit/departure on time, neither earlier nor later. As a traffic controller, I don't play anything in advance because I don't want to cause problems for my colleague at the next station. AMEN 😎

Punctuality does not come into play, efficiency does. As a traffic controller you have no reason to hold a train which can be send in sequence. Any train which has the option to be send out of sequence should be communicated and agreed upon.

You may wish to read Instrukcja Ir-1 (R-1) chapter 51 to ensure you're doing the proper thing.

Last, as per OP holding up a Pendo at Psary will get you on report. Possibly followed by a kick and ultimately a ban. You have been warned.

(Or any other station for that matter. 😄)

Edited February 26, 2023 by Skully

[ekto]

I personally like when something happens, a stop, there's some traffic ahead, and so on. Today there was some bot train that drove trough a red ABS, so he was doing 20 kph. Then something else happened and it stopped. This piled all the trains next to Psary. Dispatcher went to deal with it but it took like 10 to 15 minutes to fix the issue. And the rest of the trip, there ware planty of yellow and reds along the way.

It was much more pleasing compared to just running all greens and just trying to keep top speed. I also like when they put the train on a siding, since then there is something to do.

[0x8000ffff]

3 godziny temu, Skully napisał(a):

First out of curiosity, what simulator are you talking about?

The Polish simulator Train Drviver 2. The Dispatchers

 

there are very strict about the rules and realism of the simulation. I got my habits from there ;)

3 godziny temu, Skully napisał(a):

Punctuality does not come into play, efficiency does.

Traffic punctuality is essential. As a traffic controller, I make traffic decisions. Of course, the driver can write a report on me if he disagrees with me. Fortunately, the simulation mechanism does not allow the driver to ignore the S1 signal.

 

3 godziny temu, Skully napisał(a):

You may wish to read Instrukcja Ir-1 (R-1) chapter 51 to ensure you're doing the proper thing.

Unfortunately, the records of Ir-1 are not unambiguous.

[DazT]

Haha, love the photos, I got caught up in all that earlier, I'm the EP07 on the right 😁

[Gazz292]

If the human dispatchers want everything to run at it's allotted time, in the stock sequence, then why bother with human dispatchers, they are acting like bot's then, running a set program that can't be varied... that's very much like how most single player train driving games work, 

 

I thought the fun of dispatching was assessing the situations that occur and figuring out how to make things work, so a train arriving early changes the paths of other trains around it, but that's where the fun starts, same with a late train. 

The dispatcher that holds a passenger train because it's early, do they take into account that if they release the train dead on time, it will now be running late, as it needs to build up speed again. 
Surely the place to hold an early train is a scheduled station stop, no passengers are going to complain about arriving in a station early.

Edited February 26, 2023 by Gazz292
spelling

[darryl0768healy]

My main issue was the dispatchers attitude for it. I asked for a green to keep proceeding, he goes to argue with an attitude.

That sort of thing doesn't sit well with me as it can ruin game play. 

I like being held and put into sidings as it creates more realism but sitting on the mainline for nothing then getting attitude when asked why I'm stopped after asking twice....thats how people get reported.

Good to say this player learnt from what I explained to him and the following day I had lights straight through while I was a few mins early with no disruption to the timetable.

Pendolino services often run around 6mins early with absolutely no effect on other trains or the timetable at all. In fact if they run early they burden themselves by catching up to 141 jobs.

[Angelo]

Hi!

As a colleague of DazT (fellow signalman) I can assure you that trains do run early. Just this morning I had a goods running 27' early.

Of course, it depends on the situation on the line. Here at work we always have a person who coordinates the whole line and takes all the global decisions, i.e. deciding when a train should let another one pass and where, or which train should enter first in a junction, etc.

A great tool for making good-informed decisions is the real time train graph. I've seen there's one for SimRail, although IMHO it still needs some work regarding readability.

So, should you send a train early? Personally, I always send fast passengers when I can, since the worst that could happen is they'll wait somewhere at a signal; for goods trains, regardless if they're on time or not, I check for how much time I have until I need to send something faster on the same track. If a Pendolino is coming in a few minutes but I'm near the next station, I'll let the freight run; if the next station is too far away, I'll wait for the departure of the fast train. Regardless of whether or not the goods is on time, early, or delayed.

It's not about the punctuality of every train: it's about the overall regularity, and of course making people get where they need to be on time.

Then of course, train dispatching can't be fully explained in a single forum post - and perhaps not by me.

[Goozinger]

9 hours ago, Angelo said:

Then of course, train dispatching can't be fully explained in a single forum post - and perhaps not by me.

Exactly this. I think its pretty much everything you need to know. When I'm driving a Pendolino i expect dispatchers treat me as prio 1, if not, then not.

But the game is missing a simple info about who has prio or not for new dispatchers. Also i would suggest to higher the needed dispatching times for high-level boxes.

EDIT: and also adjust some levels of existing boxes

Edited February 27, 2023 by Goozinger

[darryl0768healy]

39 minutes ago, Goozinger said:

Exactly this. I think its pretty much everything you need to know. When I'm driving a Pendolino i expect dispatchers treat me as prio 1, if not, then not.

But the game is missing a simple info about who has prio or not for new dispatchers. Also i would suggest to higher the needed dispatching times for high-level boxes.

EDIT: and also adjust some levels of existing boxes

Absolutely! 

Everyone in game learns off others too which is a huge part of Simrail. 

Seems he didn't want advice but still learnt from it anyway on the advice of a report in game.

[DazT]

And now I'll take the thread onto a new tangent, holding a signal on the end of the platform at red 'just because I stop' there even though I'm next to go, I can read the timetable! 😁

By holding the platform starting signal at danger means I'll then adopt a defensive driving style and crawl into the platform.

[darryl0768healy]

33 minutes ago, DazT said:

And now I'll take the thread onto a new tangent, holding a signal on the end of the platform at red 'just because I stop' there even though I'm next to go, I can read the timetable! 😁

By holding the platform starting signal at danger means I'll then adopt a defensive driving style and crawl into the platform.

I hold departure signals at red for stopping trains until they're due to go. It just shows that there's a stop too incase their HUD is off. Keeps the signal interlocking available for anything else that may happen.

[Schyrsivochter]

People told me a while ago that it’s Polish regulation saying signals behind platforms should be kept on until the train has come to a standstill. Don’t know if that’s correct, but when playing as dispatcher I try to follow it anyway. Especially seeing as there’s not generally any train protection forcing drivers to brake early and/or drive slowly when approaching a danger signal.

[Thistle Whistle]

The way I do it is to keep the red until the train has stopped, but always try to ensure I've switched to proceed about 30 secs before departure, then it's the driver's responsibility to leave on time.  If you hold the red until actual departure time, you're leaving the driver unsure as to whether they will be leaving on time.  Give a clear indication that they'll be clear to go on schedule and they can begin preparations for departure.  And as mentioned, it can pay to not open the route earlier.

As for priority for Pendos, some people are taking it too far.  The other day I was driving a regional into Bedzin, and the entry signal was at 40kph.  I didn't realise straight away why that was, but I obviously crawled into Bedzin to find myself routed onto the left track.

Moments later a Pendo came by on the right track.  The problem is, that Pendo was scheduled AFTER me.  And to make matters worse, it has a stop at Sosnowiec Glowny.  The dispatcher at SG had the foresight to route the Pendo onto the currently unused line, and my now delayed service (which was bang on time before Bedzin) at least managed to get back in front.  But unfortunately it doesn't look like the Bedzin dispatcher learned anything from the resulting radio chat sorting out the problem they caused, because the very next night I saw the same dispatcher pull exactly the same move.  Only the SG dispatcher seemed similarly useless because after holding the now delayed regional behind the Pendo that was sitting at the platform, they must have got bored because they eventually just sent the regional into the sidings! It ended up being over 10 minutes late and didn't stop at SG.

🤔

[Thistle Whistle]

1 hour ago, DazT said:

By holding the platform starting signal at danger means I'll then adopt a defensive driving style and crawl into the platform.

Whilst I can fully understand your point, I'd say this is a driver problem, not a dispatcher problem.  As the driver, you will know where that signal is, and will know it's beyond the platform.  This is obviously a route knowledge issue, but if you don't have the route knowledge then the HUD is a simulation of that, and will show the signal is beyond the platform.  And once you're armed with the knowledge that the signal is beyond the platform, there's no need for the defensive drive style.