Neutral Sections

[Allah macht frei]

As circled in the screenshot, the game is right now not simulating neutral sections of powergrid where the current flow cuts off, therefore especially in older stock the driver needs to cut power off before entering these sections in order not to damage the resistors and convertors.

Would be good to have a script where game cuts the power off while pantograph passes through the neutral sections, and turns onto previous setting (if driver has forgotten to notch off, then which might damage the train) when exiting.

[BigVern]

Funnily enough was thinking about this last night. If implemented might need an on screen countdown similar to what we get for signal distances now.

[Thistle Whistle]

Also had been meaning to ask about Neutral Sections.  Would definitely like to see them 'functional'. 👍 Please no on screen countdown's though.  There's signage for a reason.

[stronzio]

Are those "permanent", though? Because I have the vague suspect that in Poland those signs are also used to signal a division between two electrical sections (i.e. substations or between line/station) but have to be observed only if ordered to. Can anyone clarify? I've always bee curious since observing them in maszyna

[Pixelade]

1 hour ago, Thistle Whistle said:

Also had been meaning to ask about Neutral Sections.  Would definitely like to see them 'functional'. 👍 Please no on screen countdown's though.  There's signage for a reason.

i don't think it would be so bad if it was small and in the corner similar to how the upcoming signal aspect is displayed on the HUD. Maybe an option in the settings to turn neutral section 'hints' on/off. 🙂

[Gazz292]

yeah, maybe add a warning to the HUD as an optional feature,  and have a page of realism check boxes to set if you want to have an experience like a real driver, where driving under power over a neutral section can damage your loco / the OLE,
Same with panto down signs etc,

OR have a more 'game like' experience where you are just operating power and brakes.

Having all these extra things optional would be best,  as if the driving experience is too realistic right from the start, people are going to give up saying it's too hard,

So let people start with optional features off and get used to just controlling the train, then start adding the other features as they get used to the train, and it will become second nature for you to be looking at the signs along the track and reacting to them, just like a real train driver does.

[Pixelade]

15 minutes ago, Gazz292 said:

yeah, maybe add a warning to the HUD as an optional feature,  and have a page of realism check boxes to set if you want to have an experience like a real driver, where driving under power over a neutral section can damage your loco / the OLE,
Same with panto down signs etc,

OR have a more 'game like' experience where you are just operating power and brakes.

Having all these extra things optional would be best,  as if the driving experience is too realistic right from the start, people are going to give up saying it's too hard,

So let people start with optional features off and get used to just controlling the train, then start adding the other features as they get used to the train, and it will become second nature for you to be looking at the signs along the track and reacting to them, just like a real train driver does.

Yes, players need options. not everyone wants to operate their train like a "real driver".

don't know if this has been discussed yet, but i'd also like to maybe see a HUD overlay for elevation change like we have in TSC and TSW. Again, this could be an overlay option that has the on/off toggle in the settings menu.

[Gazz292]

oh yes, i know when i first started SimRail and other train driving sims, it seems so daunting, there's so much to do and little time to do it in before things go wrong.

but after a week or so of driving, things are becoming natural, i know how to operate the basics of the train, looking at and reacting to the in cab gauges rather than the HUD,
I start to learn the signal meanings and watch and react to the signals on the track side rather than the HUD, i know when to expect the in cab alerter / signal warning alarms, and the driving experience is enjoyable,
I even begin to start to learn the route (tho that is always the hardest part for me, as in real life i need the help of a sat nav to get to the local supermarket)

I slowly begin to learn the braking points and stop entering a platform at ~30 Kph (that's partly due to tsw and it's crap brake simulation, where applying more brakes when slowing down seems to do nothing and you overshoot, i've not overshot a platform in SimRail yet.... ok i likely knocked every one in the train to the ground by slamming on the brakes harder, but the brakes in SimRail seem to operate how i'd expect them to, from experience of traveling on the old class 101 DMU's for 3 years to and from school being able to see the driver operating the controls... many years ago now)

Then i start to crave more realism, more things i need to do respond to whilst driving.. like the neutral sections, panto down sections and so on.

 

A gradient overlay on the HUD would be good too as you say,  as long as it's optional, 
like how the current 'next signal' hud element could do with the option to turn the signal aspect off, but still show the distance to the next signal, as thats the hardest part of route learning,

I do like how the trackspeed in the bottom right corner applies to the speed of the train, and not just the track speed of the line (again a common complaint on that tsw.. along with how that game measures distance as the crow flies and not along the track!)

[Thistle Whistle]

I agree, chaps.  If it's all optional, then no harm in adding these extra hints on the HUD, just please don't inflict it on everyone or else it's going to end up playing Turbo Outrun. 😅 

But the SimRail route is so well designed that route learning is a very natural process so you'll soon learn where the Neutral Sections are - and you do get a warning sign.

Although, even Train Simulator doesn't have anything in the HUD for neutral sections...  It's not game breaking if you fail to do the procedure, although it usually requires some kind of reset of the loco.  But you learn this stuff, that's supposed to be the fun, isn't it?  😁

 

[Schyrsivochter]

I’ve noticed that contrary to what I know from Germany, those ‘neutral sections’ aren’t announced in advance (with the equivalent of El 1v). That, plus the fact that there’s so many of them, makes me think they maybe don’t have to be obeyed (by opening the main switch) in normal operation. Maybe they’re simply like those signs on the German network that signify trains shouldn’t stop in a certain section?

[Averrnor]

Taken from signaling instruction (E-1):

"Wskaźniki We 8a, We 8b, We 8c „Wskaźniki jazdy bezprądowej” oznaczają miejsce, przez które elektryczny pojazd trakcyjny powinien przejeżdżać bez pobierania prądu trakcyjnego z sieci trakcyjnej (...). Wskaźniki We 8a, We 8b i We 8c ustawia się w odległości nie mniejszej niż 30 m i nie większej niż 80 m przed elementem podłużnego sekcjonowania sieci jezdnej, takim jak izolowane przęsło naprężenia, przerwa powietrzna, izolator sekcyjny, który oddziela elektrycznie dwa odcinki sieci i przez który należy przejeżdżać bez pobierania prądu trakcyjnego z sieci;"

By Google Translate:

"Indicators We 8a, We 8b, We 8c "Dead-driving indicators" mean the place through which the electric traction vehicle
should pass without drawing electricity from the traction network (...). Indicators We 8a, We 8b and We 8c are set at 
a distance of not less than 30 m and not more than 80 m in front of the element of longitudinal sectioning of the 
catenary, such as an isolated tension span, air gap, sectional insulator that electrically separates two sections of 
the catenary and through which should be crossed without drawing traction current from the network"

Should, not must. But I do not know what might be the consequences for not respecting those signs. Also, you have to pass not less than 30m and up to 80m until sign is in force, so it gives some time for reaction.

 

 

Edited December 20, 2022 by Averrnor

[Gazz292]

There will be a lot more neutral sections on the Polish lines compared to Germany, as Poland uses 3KV DC, opposed to 15KV AC,

So power feeds into the overhead lines need to be more frequent to give the trains enough power, and the current drawn on 3KV is pretty high compared to 15/25KV lines, the reason you have a neutral section is to prevent back feeding the section ahead with power from the section behind as you pass through it, and other reasons.

 

I read that when you stop at a station and have the carriage heating on, you are supposed to raise both pantographs, this is due to the high current being drawn from the line, as in some circumstances having just one pantograph raised could draw so much power in one spot for long enough to weld the pantograph shoes to the line, 

Similarly, in a heavy freight train, when starting off you should have both panto's raised for similar reasons, spreading the load drawn over a wider area, and lower the other panto once you have got about 5Kph or so... but this is getting pretty deep into the 'how to drive a polish train realistically'
I'm just a nerd that loves learning about this kind of thing.

[Averrnor]

8 minut temu, Gazz292 napisał(a):

Similarly, in a heavy freight train, when starting off you should have both panto's raised for similar reasons, spreading the load drawn over a wider area, and lower the other panto once you have got about 5Kph or so... but this is getting pretty deep into the 'how to drive a polish train realistically'

You can also change power switch (one of the round ones) from low to high. That should increase the Amps limit until redundant relay triggers.

18 minut temu, Gazz292 napisał(a):

I'm just a nerd that loves learning about this kind of thing.

Likewise ;)

 

[stronzio]

I think that there must be more to it, Italy for example has 3kV DC too but practically no neutral sections, this being especially true on mainlines. They are exceptionally rare in fact and would be mostly found in very specific instances, like certain particular yards or depots where one side has to be electrically separated from the other or from the mainline due to technical reasons.

One theory I have is that maybe in Poland they are bit more "fussy" on this topic (be it for the way electrical infrastructure is made or some other reason I'm not aware of) so they use them in places where OHLE switches being fed from one substation to another and they advise the driver to cross them without drawing current if possible, in order to avoid potential arcs or load imbalances between the two sections., but I'm speculating at this point

[Gazz292]

15 minutes ago, Averrnor said:

You can also change power switch (one of the round ones) from low to high. That should increase the Amps limit until redundant relay triggers.

Oh yes, i have used that when i drove a freight train, it allows higher current to be drawn by the motors when they are in series connection (first 28 notches) a situation i'd expect it to be mandatory to have both pantographs raised then, as even more power is being drawn from the OLE.

It's good that it's simulated that going past notch 28 and into the parallel motor connection part, you get no power until you turn that switch back to low power (thats how it seem'd to me when i tried it)

Similar to how the parallel part of the power wheel wont activate if the field weakening / shunt lever is left in an active position (for the resistance cut out section, wind the wheel round to notch 43 and boom, you try and pull over 1200 amps and the current limit relay drops out.

 

:

 

Re: the lack of neutral sections in other countries, i wonder if it's to do with infrastructure age, or train technology?
i know that some of the modern trains in Germany can get a signal at a neutral section and automatically switch off and back on as they pass the neutral section, similar to the pantograph down sections,

I love how this has to be done manually with the older trains, makes them a lot more interesting to me, as you need to keep on your toes when driving, and not just let the onboard computers do it all for you.

The polish train system does seem to be a little on the older side, the Czuwak / SHP thing is a very basic form of driver vigilance, sort of similar to the old AWS system in england, where you could cancel a warning of a danger signal ahead and drive right past the signal if you chose to,
I think i read that the ETCS system is slowly being rolled out, i wonder how that will be implemented in the good old EU07 loco,

[robert357 - W7 FTW]

2 godziny temu, Averrnor napisał(a):

Taken from signaling instruction (E-1):

"Wskaźniki We 8a, We 8b, We 8c „Wskaźniki jazdy bezprądowej” oznaczają miejsce, przez które elektryczny pojazd trakcyjny powinien przejeżdżać bez pobierania prądu trakcyjnego z sieci trakcyjnej (...). Wskaźniki We 8a, We 8b i We 8c ustawia się w odległości nie mniejszej niż 30 m i nie większej niż 80 m przed elementem podłużnego sekcjonowania sieci jezdnej, takim jak izolowane przęsło naprężenia, przerwa powietrzna, izolator sekcyjny, który oddziela elektrycznie dwa odcinki sieci i przez który należy przejeżdżać bez pobierania prądu trakcyjnego z sieci;"

By Google Translate:

"Indicators We 8a, We 8b, We 8c "Dead-driving indicators" mean the place through which the electric traction vehicle
should pass without drawing electricity from the traction network (...). Indicators We 8a, We 8b and We 8c are set at 
a distance of not less than 30 m and not more than 80 m in front of the element of longitudinal sectioning of the 
catenary, such as an isolated tension span, air gap, sectional insulator that electrically separates two sections of 
the catenary and through which should be crossed without drawing traction current from the network"

Should, not must.

This is the best example of how bad online translations are without knowing the context. In second sentence it should be translated as "must". As someone mentioned already, driving under neutral sections might damage locomotive, infrastructure and can melt insulators. Just to be clear, there's no need to turn off whole locomotive! Driver only have set throttle (or whatever it's called) to the 0 position. That's it.

 

Godzinę temu, Gazz292 napisał(a):

The polish train system does seem to be a little on the older side, the Czuwak / SHP thing is a very basic form of driver vigilance, sort of similar to the old AWS system in england, where you could cancel a warning of a danger signal ahead and drive right past the signal if you chose to, I think i read that the ETCS system is slowly being rolled out, i wonder how that will be implemented in the good old EU07 loco,

IRL and in game these locomotives won't get ETCS mostly because they are, well, too old. In this year Polish Office of Rail Transport said that right now there is around 50% locomotives and EMUs that are 40 years old. So it's not profitable to equip them with ETCS, especially that in Polish railway CA and SHP is mandatory and that won't change any time soon. Route with ETCS is still equipped with SHP anyway so locomotives that don't have ETCS or have it disabled can still drive on these routs. Not to mention that right now main reason to implement ETCS is mostly to run trains with higher speeds (above 160kmph) and to run passenger trains above 130kmph with only one crew (at the moment, a two-man crew is required on the train).

 

About "working" neutral sections in Simrail. In Options there is "Simulation" section. If possible, it could be option to disable damage from driving under neutral sections for people who want more "relaxing" gameplay 😛

[GoppelPL]

Some of the neutral sections in Poland are covered with the signs above, but nothing happens if you accelerate through them. Strangely enough, there are some "frogs" (I believe the slang word for power section isolators is the same in English) that are only covered by the common knowledge passing from one driver to another, or by trial and error, that can spice the driving up. Some of the uncovered frogs are worse than covered neutral sections - you'll only get a nice spark from the later ones, and a need to reset the whole vehicle from the "safe" frogs 😉

 

About the ETCS - In Czech Republic they managed to introduce it to the old Skoda 163/363 locos, but I don't think it'll be the case for our old EUs.

Edited December 21, 2022 by GoppelPL

[Averrnor]

1 godzinę temu, robert357 napisał(a):

This is the best example of how bad online translations are without knowing the context. In second sentence it should be translated as "must"

But even polish instruction mentions "powinien" instead "musi".

To be clear, I do not want to argue, just to clarify 🙂

Edited December 21, 2022 by Averrnor

[Schyrsivochter]

10 hours ago, robert357 said:

This is the best example of how bad online translations are without knowing the context. In second sentence it should be translated as "must". As someone mentioned already, driving under neutral sections might damage locomotive, infrastructure and can melt insulators. Just to be clear, there's no need to turn off whole locomotive! Driver only have set throttle (or whatever it's called) to the 0 position. That's it.

 

Ah, so it’s similar to the ‘T’ boards on German tram networks.

14 hours ago, stronzio said:

One theory I have is that maybe in Poland they are bit more "fussy" on this topic (be it for the way electrical infrastructure is made or some other reason I'm not aware of) so they use them in places where OHLE switches being fed from one substation to another and they advise the driver to cross them without drawing current if possible, in order to avoid potential arcs or load imbalances between the two sections., but I'm speculating at this point

Definitely possible. I know the West and East German railways before reunification tended to handle railway power supply differently – in the West, they used a centralised, coordinated ‘railway power grid’ with its own transmission lines at 110 kV ~ 16.7 Hz running from central converter stations to substations transforming that down to 15 kV and feeding it into the catenary; whereas in the East, they tended to build decentralised converter stations producing 15 kV ~ 16.7 Hz directly, so they don’t run in phase with each other, necessitating neutral sections.

 

[Dignité]

Btw, to be in simulation at 100%, would be great that IA's locomotives raise the 2nd pantograph when stopping at station, to preserve overhead line.

[stronzio]

12 hours ago, GoppelPL said:

About the ETCS - In Czech Republic they managed to introduce it to the old Skoda 163/363 locos, but I don't think it'll be the case for our old EUs.

Also, in Switzerland they mounted it on Re620 and 420s, which are almost 50 years old:

(before)

(After)

The "good" thing about ETCS is that although it's quite an expensive system, as long as it has a way to know speed reliably, block traction and/or automatically empty the brake pipe it's more or less universal... It really comes down to how "favourable" the ROI is when installing it

1 hour ago, Schyrsivochter said:

Definitely possible. I know the West and East German railways before reunification tended to handle railway power supply differently – in the West, they used a centralised, coordinated ‘railway power grid’ with its own transmission lines at 110 kV ~ 16.7 Hz running from central converter stations to substations transforming that down to 15 kV and feeding it into the catenary; whereas in the East, they tended to build decentralised converter stations producing 15 kV ~ 16.7 Hz directly, so they don’t run in phase with each other, necessitating neutral sections.

Very interesting, to remain in topic, this might be similar to what happens in Switzerland, where there are quite a lot of neutral sections: for example a train running from Basel down to Tessin will pontentially encounter about 7/8, some are permanent and some aren't. An interesting fact is that the new Gotthard Base Tunnel alone has 4, all of them "optional" (meaning they can be activated or not if needed) and of which 2 are placed on the two junctions linking one track tunnel to the other, probably to electrically separate them in case of problems.

HS lines in italy there are electrified at 25kV AC, instead of the 3kV DC of traditional lines, and in this case there are indeed different neutral (also optional) sections  every 30/50 km where the catenary switches the phase of the substation from where its picking up power

 

Edited December 21, 2022 by stronzio

[jiklobka]

12 hours ago, GoppelPL said:

About the ETCS - In Czech Republic they managed to introduce it to the old Skoda 163/363 locos, but I don't think it'll be the case for our old EUs.

The second generation Škoda locos have semiconductors for power control and thus are far more suitable for the service today than EUs with plain rheostatic control.

[Allah macht frei]

2 hours ago, stronzio said:

Also, in Switzerland they mounted it on Re620 and 420s, which are almost 50 years old:

(before)

(After)

 

 

YUCK, I really hate retrofit in any simulator vehicle. Even i'd favour it in reallife, still it kinda breaks the original spirit and style of vehicle.

ANALOG FOREVER ❤️

Edited December 21, 2022 by Allah macht frei

[Gazz292]

The main thing i love about SimRail is the EU07,  a 1960's loco where everything is manual and the computer controlling it is the drivers brain.

I love the older stuff, but i am not a fan of driving steam trains in sims, 
give me some nice 1960-80's era trains to drive, my favorites being vintage German electric loco's,
a nostalgia thing, i lived in Germany in the 1980's growing up, so saw stuff like the BR-103, BR-420 S-Bahn emu's, the BR-111, and BR-143 running on the train lines.

 

Being a forces brat back then, traveling past the iron curtain was not allowed, so the polish stuff is all new to me, but i am loving it in SimRail.

 

 

[Stele]

22 godziny temu, stronzio napisał(a):

One theory I have is that maybe in Poland they are bit more "fussy" on this topic (be it for the way electrical infrastructure is made or some other reason I'm not aware of) so they use them in places where OHLE switches being fed from one substation to another and they advise the driver to cross them without drawing current if possible, in order to avoid potential arcs or load imbalances between the two sections., but I'm speculating at this point

Exactly that. In normal situation both sides should be under same voltage and nothing happenes when you switch between them drawing current. But if it varies, you're gonna get power spike on loco and draw an arc. It happens due to increased load in certain area or if something is disconneced due to maintance and one substation must feed nearby sections. There are videos with voltage arround 2,4kV that barely allows to draw any power before undervoltage relay on substation cuts off everyhing. Also whole section might be disabled and somebody might be working on it but due to human error train enters it anyway. Arc in such case might be a danger to those guys if they messed up grounding their sight. And such things happenes more often than you'd think. One more safety procedure never hurts.