Unsafe signal sequence in Ząbkowice for 73xxx

[noirceur]

Trains 73xxx usually need to exchange in DGZ with trains coming from DG on the main line before they can take a turn to DG Huta Katowice, and are for this reason stopped in the platform. However the signal sequence shown does not provide enough room to safely stop unless you know that you need to expect stop. Entrance signal shows expect 100 km/h, intermediary signal shows 100 km/h and expect stop on short distance, but the following signal showing stop is in distance that does not allow for comfortable stop even from 60 km/h, not speaking about higher speeds. From 100 km/h speed, even full emergency brake is only barely enough.

I assume that as with other stations with similar sequencing it should signal 40 km/h and stop on short distance instead, which would make much more sense.

Additionally, as these trains are not stopping in DGZ for passengers, it may be useful to direct them through the eastern (left) tracks when possible to avoid colliding paths altogether.

 

[GoppelPL]

Well you don't have to always go the max speed. You can clearly see the red signal behind, and the reduced braking distance sign is on. That's how it works in the real life.

[Schyrsivochter]

Sorry, but the ‘you don’t have to go the max speed’ argument is rubbish. How are you supposed to know when and how much to reduce your speed, if not through signalling?

How is a freight train with a max speed of 100 km/h, with brakes only just good enough to brake from 100 to a stop in 1 km, expected to come to a stop in, what is this, 500 m? 600 m? after the ‘expect stop’? Yeah, in clear weather you’d see it from several hundred metres back and can start braking in advance, but what if it’s foggy? Are heavy trains supposed to start braking long before the signal ‘just in case’? I’m legitimately curious; how do the signalling and Polish operating rules ensure no SPAD can happen in this case in real life?

 

[SugaCane]

This two Signs (W19/20) are not there for nothing. The W19 in an the entrance signal and mostly on, when you drive this route like about. If its Foggy, you dont drive VMax, when you know that you can't see the signals properly and you should also have enough knowledge of the route by now to know that there is a very short braking distance.

[Fightdrug]

ah... remember that...

i have make a emergency break between starzyny and psary because of a yellow signal and 500m red behind it xD since then i reduce speed to 50 when leaving starzyny thats here the same just remember that signal and it dont will fool you 🥖

then you will be so good like them 😄
 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Fightdrug

[Schyrsivochter]

1 hour ago, SugaCane said:

This two Signs (W19/20) are not there for nothing. The W19 in an the entrance signal and mostly on, when you drive this route like about. If its Foggy, you dont drive VMax, when you know that you can't see the signals properly and you should also have enough knowledge of the route by now to know that there is a very short braking distance.

So W19 basically means I have to expect a restrictive aspect at the signal after the next one and if I have a train with bad brakes I should already start braking?

If that alone is supposed to make me start braking, then a) why is it just a little inconspicuous arrow and not larger/more obvious, since it’s so safety critical; b) what is the actual speed reduction for?

[Corrazone]

12 godzin temu, Schyrsivochter napisał(a):

So W19 basically means I have to expect a restrictive aspect at the signal after the next one and if I have a train with bad brakes I should already start braking?

Yes, basically when you see a W19 indicator you need to control the speed of the train, so that you can brake within the next two signalboxes if, for example, you see that the next signal will be stop.

 

12 godzin temu, Schyrsivochter napisał(a):

If that alone is supposed to make me start braking, then a) why is it just a little inconspicuous arrow and not larger/more obvious, since it’s so safety critical; b) what is the actual speed reduction for? 

a) Indicators in polish railways are mostly that small, and thats it. In Poland, knowledge of the trail is very important in terms of safety. Most train drivers know the routes they drive on by heart.

b) In this situation, the speed limit at the signalbox applies to passing straight through "English" type switches.

Edited November 15, 2023 by Corrazone

[Schyrsivochter]

Thank you for the explanation! I assume with an ‘English type’ you mean a double slip, I’ve heard those have limited max speeds even when going straight over them.

Though this makes me wonder why Dąbrowa Górnicza main station signal D signals 40 km/h if C2 is at stop. I thought that was due to the reduced braking distance.

Is it because of short overlap with the level crossing? Would entry signal O also show a reduced speed of 40 km/h for a route to C1 if C1 were at stop? If the DG interlocking allowed to select a longer overlap, with level crossing secured, would P in that case show S2 instead of S4, and D show S5 instead of S13?

[Corrazone]

28 minut temu, Schyrsivochter napisał(a):

Though this makes me wonder why Dąbrowa Górnicza main station signal D signals 40 km/h if C2 is at stop. I thought that was due to the reduced braking distance.

Yes, sometimes reduced speed signals are used to further cover the lack of braking distance, but this is relatively rare.

31 minut temu, Schyrsivochter napisał(a):

Is it because of short overlap with the level crossing? Would entry signal O also show a reduced speed of 40 km/h for a route to C1 if C1 were at stop? If the DG interlocking allowed to select a longer overlap, with level crossing secured, would P in that case show S2 instead of S4, and D show S5 instead of S13?

I'm not sure. Perhaps this is due to the too small distance from which the driver can see the signal on the signalbox. Therefore, the S13 signal is used to let the driver know that there is no passage through the station, because he will be informed by the S4 signal on the last automatic signalbox (SBL) with W18 indicator.