Poor train regulation by DGZ and Lazy AI

[DazT]

If 629*** doesn't get held by Bedzin AI and follows 401** service, the AI at DGZ will then hold 401** in the platform and let the 629*** service overtake crossing right in front of 401** and run that onto line 160 (or whatever the 'slow' lines are DGZ to Lazy Lc). This then delays the 401** service which will then arrive late at Lazy Station. As a result the AI at Lazy will then hold the service 401** in the platform and let 41** overtake it (via the 40 route!) causing even more delay to 401**. 

If anything the AI at Lazy should just let 401** go towards Zw even if only a few minutes late as 41** and 401** go two different routes anyway when they get to Zw (and 41** is booked behind 401** Lazy to Zw)

By letting the AI use the 40 route through the station at Lazy for 41**, this then also delays any southbound traffic unnecessarily. 

(Server EN1 2100~2120hrs 09/06/2023 | EAB 16/05/2023 - 13:44)

Edited June 9, 2023 by DazT

[DazT]

@uetam Any reason why this has been moved from 'Bug Reporting' to 'General discussion'?

[Snowpig]

because it is working as intended maybe?

[DazT]

Nope, it's not, the 401** is booked ahead of the 41** train all the way to Zw, the AI at DGZ/Lazy is purposely causing delay to the 401**, even if it's smack bang on time, holding it and making it 5 to 10 minutes late for no reason whatsoever. I think between them they've just got a shares interest in Ferodo brakes, slow everything down, more share capital return in worn out brakes.

Edited June 27, 2023 by DazT

[the810]

There are more stations where AI consistently ignores the timetable. Idzikowice has the opposite problem, they ignore technical stops for IC trains and always send them early, which is a big problem, because then they arrive early to Opoczno, which only has one platform and that's needed for a train in the opposite direction. Thus you have no choice than to hold the IC before the station (which should not normally happen), thus blocking the line if there's a faster train behind it.

[DazT]

@kojonek2 You asked for example of where the AI screws up, here is another one. Please can you move this thread back to 'Bug Reporting' as it was always a bug from the start thread and someone has taken it upon themselves to move it into 'General discussion', which is isn't, it's a bug.

Example 2 - Server EN1 06/07/2023 1145 - 1230 (Server time)

40170, departed Dąbrowa Górnicza 1 late, the AI at DG decided to give me an Sz (why???) out of the platform so 20kph until the next signal, arrived Dąbrowa Górnicza Ząbkowice via a 40 route into a side platform 5 minutes late.

The AI at DGZ then ran (early) 649064 which had been behind me onto a side track north of the station, rather than then just letting 40170 go, it decided that 4122 had priority (even though I was booked away first, next stop is Lazy with 4 minutes standing time), it then ran 4122 via a 40 route through DGZ ahead of both myself on 40170 and also 649064.

Then the AI decided to cross early 649064 across in front of me onto the 'slow' lines (Line 186) to Lazy Lc whilst letting me out of the platform. After 649064 had cleared, it then ran me from the 'slow' lines over the 40 route back onto the main line, passing Lazy Lc 14 minutes late.

The AI at DGZ needs to be told that Pendolinos do not have priority when trains are timetabled in a certain order to Zw and when the first train is only a minute or so late to just hang fire and let it run. 40170 should have just left DGZ first, with 4122 behind it all the way to Zw as booked as the line speed is the same for both trains anyway.

PS. This sort of thing is no longer a rarity, it practically happens most rotations of the timetable where the 401** northbound ROJs are poorly regulated by either the AI at DGZ or at Lazy or both.

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by DazT

[DazT]

On 6/27/2023 at 3:07 PM, the810 said:

There are more stations where AI consistently ignores the timetable. Idzikowice has the opposite problem, they ignore technical stops for IC trains and always send them early, which is a big problem, because then they arrive early to Opoczno, which only has one platform and that's needed for a train in the opposite direction. Thus you have no choice than to hold the IC before the station (which should not normally happen), thus blocking the line if there's a faster train behind it.

I think I've worked out how the AI works, it only reads back to the dispatch post in rear, so if a train is approaching a location where it should be looped and the train(s) that should pass have not gone past the dispatch post in rear it'll just run the first train it can see. But that has a flaw, by only looking back to the dispatch post behind you, if that is a short distance between boxes then the AI will just keep you going because the likelihood that the train that should pass you is miles away and is nowhere near the dispatch post in rear.

[Friedjof]

The AI is also doing weird things at Warszawa Zachodnia.
The 199XX line always get´s delayed by around ten minutes to let the two pendos 13XX and 14XX pass, allthough this does not need to happen because the RE1 is on time and would be out of the way of both pendos because it switches to line 447.

[giBBer8]

Yes, AI is prone to mistakes, no company has tried to program this before, let's take a breath.

Thinking this new challenge through, it's staggering that the team has got even most of it working as it should, given humans can alter, stop, and delay timetables as they see fit.

 

 

 

 

 

[DazT]

2 hours ago, giBBer8 said:

AI is prone to mistakes, no company has tried to program this before, let's take a breath.

Beyond a non-professional simulator partially true, SimSig has ARS (Automatic Route Setting) on some of their sims which based on British Rail's IECC tech (of which a derivative of which still used to this day as we've got it at the box where I work in an updated form called SA-RS (Signaller's Assistant - Route Setting, they couldn't call it 'ARS', even though that's exactly what it is and indeed the role it carries out they called it SA-RS as the name 'ARS' is trademarked by a rival company).

But to give them their dues at SimRail, even the real ARS/SA-RS makes mistakes with regards to regulation of trains, mainly due to how it actually works. It will only look at and compare two trains on approach to/at a conflict point and go with the best option (more so when stuff is late), however it doesn't know how fast a train is going, doesn't know it's snowing/raining etc and a train is crawling, doesn't know the driver is dawdling, all it knows is what time the current time is, and what times both trains are due at the next timing location based on their current delay and goes with one of them accordingly, not always the best option I might add!

I think calling it 'AI' is a bit of a falsehood as it doesn't seem to have any intelligence at all, ie, it doesn't learn from its mistakes. How I would improve SimRails bot signalling is for it to read-back a little further than just to the previous block post (important more so with short sections between boxes where it can't see past the end of its nose which seem to cause the most trouble).

When a train is booked a 'pt' stop the SimRail signalling bot should look at that train concerned with the pt, then look and see which other trains are booked past it and actually look and see where those trains are, even if they are two, three, four boxes back and what time they will be expected to pass, whether those trains booked to pass are late or whether the 'pt' can be disregarded and the train kept going to the next location where it can be dealt with (and repeat the cycle at that next location), and when it is required to adhere to the 'pt' and instead of standing it on the mainline and running passing traffic round on the slowest route, instead actually putting it on a side track. And also getting away from doing what it currently seems to do of 'Pendolino has priority, Pendolino goes first' (add robotic voice for extra SFX) and totally disregarding the timetable.

Edited July 16, 2023 by DazT

[DazT]

Example 3

40174 held for early 4126 (ran via 40 route) at Lazy station making 40174 late departing (7 minutes late). By the time 4126 was passing Lazy I should have just been departing from Zawiercie @ 14:12. 40627 also delayed southbound entering Lazy waiting for 4126 to clear.

Server EN1 19/07/2023 14:05 to 14:15hrs | EAB: 16/05/2023 13:44

Edited July 19, 2023 by DazT