How do I get fine control of brakes on the EP07 when using keyboard?

[pschlik]

Howdy,

When driving the EP07 using keyboard, I'm struggling to find a way to apply a moderate amount of braking. When the train brake is initial and I tap my pneumatic brake increase keybind, the brake immediately jumps to full service. Safe to say, this makes it difficult to slow down smoothly! However, when I use mouse controls, I am able to apply the brake gradually in-between initial and full service.

I would not be surprised if I'm missing something-do any of you know how to make the keyboard commands not skip the service range entirely? If this is an actual issue, or a feature that could (should) be added, I can post in the appropriate section.

Side note-similar is true for the locomotive brake. Just one tap of my locomotive brake keybind will immediately set the locomotive brake to 100%. I cannot control it gradually without the mouse.

[Thistle Whistle]

Hmmm... I hadn't realised you can graduate the train brake with the mouse. 

I'm kind of fine with the keyboard controls. Initial if I want to slow down gently, full if need to slow down sharpish. I can get by with that just fine.

I'd probably use the mouse to control the loco brake since you need to look down to see where it's at, anyway.

I'll certainly give it a shot with the train brake to see what it's like.

But yeah, I'm not sure you can moderate it with the keyboard, but happy to be told different. 😊

[Bescot]

+1 I would also like to know this. Both brakes in the EP07 are only working in an analogue way via keyboard. Release or..  'woah there', fully applied. I have to keep wiggling the handle to keep it at the BP reduction I need.

[BigVern]

We seem to be missing a lap position between initial and full service.

Also as good a place to repeat I think we need an indication of the brake handle (or combined power handle) on the actual HUD so don't need to keep hovering the mouse over the actual lever.

[Thistle Whistle]

Personally not a fan of adding more to the HUD, especially for something we don't use much.  A simple glance downwards reveals all you need to know.

If the HUD were customisable, fine, but imposing it on everyone is a no-no for me.  The less we have on the HUD the better.  Gets you much more in tune with using the gauges and you'll have a far more immersive experience.

[Thistle Whistle]

Sorry, my comment about 'something we don't use much' was relating to the loco brake.

For the train brake handle, again, you get used to recognising what position it's in just by looking at it.  We don't need a graphical representation on a HUD for something we can literally look at.

[BigVern]

2 hours ago, Thistle Whistle said:

Sorry, my comment about 'something we don't use much' was relating to the loco brake.

For the train brake handle, again, you get used to recognising what position it's in just by looking at it.  We don't need a graphical representation on a HUD for something we can literally look at.

Well as this stage is about feedback to the devs I must respectfully disagree and request it is something I would like to see as an option. When you're focused on braking down for a signal or station stop the last thing I want to be doing is looking at the handle or trying to hover your mouse over it. Or it could be a simple tickertape message which flashes momentarily on the screen, as in TSW, to tell you what position the handle is in. It's something I would like to see so while respecting your counterpoint please don't dismiss my opinion.

[Thistle Whistle]

6 minutes ago, BigVern said:

Well as this stage is about feedback to the devs I must respectfully disagree and request it is something I would like to see as an option. When you're focused on braking down for a signal or station stop the last thing I want to be doing is looking at the handle or trying to hover your mouse over it. Or it could be a simple tickertape message which flashes momentarily on the screen, as in TSW, to tell you what position the handle is in. It's something I would like to see so while respecting your counterpoint please don't dismiss my opinion.

Well that's why I think if things like that are added to the HUD then it should be optional.  Personally I'm not having the same difficulty stopping for stations or signals that you seem to be having.

But I think if we go down the road of tickertape messages for brake applications we're going to end up with an arcade game like TSW.  I don't see how that's enjoyable...

[BigVern]

11 minutes ago, Thistle Whistle said:

But I think if we go down the road of tickertape messages for brake applications we're going to end up with an arcade game like TSW.  I don't see how that's enjoyable...

Again I would disagree that TSW3 is an arcade game... It's actually pretty good if you choose the right routes and content (mainly the German stuff). However a better comparison might be Run 8 where you generally have a good view of the gauges to see how much brake you've put on and the application is progressive rather than stepped. Also what isn't helping is the EU07 seems to lack a lapped position in conjunction with full service (mentioned in another thread but no comment from the devs) which means you are getting either very little braking from the initial application or an uncontrolled surge to full service with nothing in between.

[Thistle Whistle]

Just now, BigVern said:

Again I would disagree that TSW3 is an arcade game... It's actually pretty good if you choose the right routes and content (mainly the German stuff). However a better comparison might be Run 8 where you generally have a good view of the gauges to see how much brake you've put on and the application is progressive rather than stepped. Also what isn't helping is the EU07 seems to lack a lapped position in conjunction with full service (mentioned in another thread but no comment from the devs) which means you are getting either very little braking from the initial application or an uncontrolled surge to full service with nothing in between.

There seems to be conflicting opinions on whether or not there should be a lapped position.  I'm not in a position of knowledge, so can't comment.

As you mention there are gauges in the cab which tell you where your brakes are.  But you said you don't want to look down at your brake lever, so I guess you won't want to look at the gauges either.  But you'd be happy to look down at a tickertape message?

TSW is arcade in comparison to SimRail and Run8.  I've wasted enough money on it to know.  Terrible sounds, terrible lighting, now terrible dynamic weather, terrible night time, terrible route design, tiny routes. What's not to like. 😅 DTG just go about things the wrong way.  Run8 is a lot of fun.  Train Driver 2 is fun if you can get over the language barrier.

There's a lot of people out there that don't like TSW and want something more sim oriented and SimRail appears to be filling that gap.  We don't need to morph it into TSW - we've got TSW for that.

[hyzwar]

 

I like fine-tuning when using brakes, but I think this is not a problem to play with the brake lever during approach instead of eg. "17%" of braking force is the final solution from 100 kph to a stop, in 1000 m (just a fantasy example). I think this is about taste, habit, etc.

Elsewhere, someone suggested using the mouse wheel to operate the lever. That would be the best in my opinion. Point the cursor to an interactive element in the cockpit and use the mouse wheel, fine-tuning or not.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by hyzwar

[Thistle Whistle]

23 minutes ago, hyzwar said:

I like fine-tuning when using brakes, but I think this is not a problem to play with the brake lever during approach instead of eg. "17%" of braking force is the final solution from 100 kph to a stop, in 1000 m (just a fantasy example). I think this is about taste, habit, etc.

Elsewhere, someone suggested using the mouse wheel to operate the lever. That would be the best in my opinion. Point the cursor to an interactive element in the cockpit and use the mouse wheel, fine-tuning or not.

Yeah, I tried with the mouse but it ain't all that good.  Not sure if that's the intended way to do it.  I can manage just fine with the two setting via keyboard.  Forward planning is the important thing.

[pschlik]

Worth noting that "just use the mouse" is not an acceptable solution to this, as this screws over anyone who is in a situation where they can't use a mouse (consider someone playing on Steam Deck or other consoles, someone with limited motor skills who simply lacks the precision to use a mouse, stuff like that). It's frankly absurd to force those people to have no fine control over the brakes, especially when the change is as simple as making the button inputs just not skip the entire graduated self lapping portion of the brake. All the other sims do it, and those are perfectly controllable.

[Oystein]

Full service brake is quite extreme and is rarely used by train drivers in normal operation. On the other hand, initial is a very low brake application that requires you to start braking very early. I hope they find a solution to have gradual application.

We could just let num 3 gradually run through the brake positions before it reaches full service brake and that it lap when the key is released.

Or we could have it like this?

-off
-fill
-running
-initial
-gradually apply with num 6, lap when the key is released.
-full service
-emergency

Using num 9 to gradually release and go back again to the initial position.

[Oystein]

19 hours ago, Thistle Whistle said:

Well that's why I think if things like that are added to the HUD then it should be optional.  Personally I'm not having the same difficulty stopping for stations or signals that you seem to be having.

But I think if we go down the road of tickertape messages for brake applications we're going to end up with an arcade game like TSW.  I don't see how that's enjoyable...

Of course you don't have any problems stopping at stations or signals if you use full service brake all the time 🙂

Cab gauges are hard to see in-game, so I agree with having a HUD displaying important information like positions of the different controls. HUD should be customizable so that people who don't want it can turn it of.

Right now brake force is displayed in the bottom right corner HUD, but there is a delay when applying the brake so you can't be sure what position the brake handle is in.

 

[Thistle Whistle]

1 hour ago, Oystein said:

Of course you don't have any problems stopping at stations or signals if you use full service brake all the time 🙂

Sorry, when did I say that?

[Oystein]

2 hours ago, Thistle Whistle said:

Sorry, when did I say that?

The very first reply to this topic maybe?

"I'm kind of fine with the keyboard controls. Initial if I want to slow down gently, full if need to slow down sharpish. I can get by with that just fine. "

🙂

 

[BigVern]

The fact is you either need a stepped brake with several stages between initial and full service, or variable by having an apply/lap/release system. Unless of course the real EU07 *is* set up like that, in which case hang on to your hats if standing up or drinking a cup of coffee and the driver goes into full service...

[Thistle Whistle]

28 minutes ago, Oystein said:

The very first reply to this topic maybe?

"I'm kind of fine with the keyboard controls. Initial if I want to slow down gently, full if need to slow down sharpish. I can get by with that just fine. "

🙂

Er, afraid not.  Think you need reading lessons.

I use Initial for probably about 90% of my braking and increase if I need more.

I don't think your stop accuracy is going to be very good if you only ever use Full, especially in a freight train.

Anyway, you do you and keep up the snide comments.

 

4 minutes ago, BigVern said:

The fact is you either need a stepped brake with several stages between initial and full service, or variable by having an apply/lap/release system. Unless of course the real EU07 *is* set up like that, in which case hang on to your hats if standing up or drinking a cup of coffee and the driver goes into full service...

Indeed.  I hadn't actually explored the mouse option fully.  I'd assumed that as soon as you go a fraction beyond Initial the popup says Full Application so I thought that was what it was doing and just gave up on it, but there is indeed a graduated area so there is fine control there, but just not on keyboard (at least without moderating).  So armed with that I've been using the mouse when more control is desirable.  Just need to bring it to keyboard.

[Oystein]

21 minutes ago, Thistle Whistle said:

Er, afraid not.  Think you need reading lessons.

I use Initial for probably about 90% of my braking and increase if I need more.

I don't think your stop accuracy is going to be very good if you only ever use Full, especially in a freight train.

Anyway, you do you and keep up the snide comments.

Indeed.  I hadn't actually explored the mouse option fully.  I'd assumed that as soon as you go a fraction beyond Initial the popup says Full Application so I thought that was what it was doing and just gave up on it, but there is indeed a graduated area so there is fine control there, but just not on keyboard (at least without moderating).  So armed with that I've been using the mouse when more control is desirable.  Just need to bring it to keyboard.

Initial is good in some situations but often you need a bit more unless you want a long braking distance. I'm not familiar with the braking system on these locos but I guess you get around ~0,7 bar cylinder pressure in the first step.

It was first yesterday that I learned you could gradually apply the brakes with the mouse, I also believed that there was only initial and full service by using the mouse. So now I have a bit more control. But I'm not a big fan of using the mouse while playing any simulators so that's why I want to be able to use the keys to apply brakes in a more controlled way.

I'm sure the devs will find a solution for this.

[BigVern]

I think to be honest at this point we need some input from the devs, rather than arguing amongst ourselves. If there is indeed a graduated or stepped brake on the EU07 between initial and full service then we need to have a keyboard option to use it. That also again comes back to having some sort of visual cue as to how far along the travel you are, which isn't just the brake handle. My hands are affected by neuropathy which means it's preferable to use the keyboard rather than the mouse.

[Gazz292]

as far as i can tell, the train brake lever is a self lapping type,

As if you move it with the mouse, you can leave it in any position between 'initial' and 'full brakes'  say to build up 22% brake pipe pressure and no more.

:

Something i found out today... you can move the controls with the mouse wheel... you need to right click on the control, then scroll up and down,

i am playing on a laptop and have a trackball connected, i move the mouse cursor to the control i want to adjust, then i hold down left click on the laptops trackpad, and then i can scroll the trackball's wheel and i it moves the lever/switch nicely (i just find this easier than holding left mouse button on the trackball and scrolling with my middle finger)

i've found this very handy for moving the main power wheel in this train, i can now quickly move the wheel from notch 0 to 1 then to 28 in a second, far faster than dragging the wheel with the mouse or using the + and - buttons,
I then hold right click over the field weakening lever, and move that with the mouse scroll wheel,

It's then very fast to put the lever back to zero, then move the main power wheel upto notch 43, and again move the field weakening lever with the mouses scroll wheel.
i.e when trying to maintian a steady speed around 100 kph, it takes a long time using the keyboard keys to step from notch 43 down to notch 28 and back up as needed when the current needed to maintain speed is about between the 2 settings.

 

 

Maybe in the future we could assign a keyboard key to hold down then move the scroll wheel to move a control, say hold down Z and scroll to move the power wheel, hold down X and scroll to move the field weakening lever, hold down C and scroll to move the brake lever.

 

Unfortunately the brake lever moves very very slowly with the scroll wheel,

:

 

I know eventually we will get the ability to assign joystick axis to the controls,
so i can build a control panel to operate these trains like the one i was building for tsw2.. i gave up on that project when they proved they are just money grabbing with tsw3, so far i am very impressed with SimRail,  and i can see a great future with this simulator.

 

[MalzbierMan]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb BigVern:

The fact is you either need a stepped brake with several stages between initial and full service, or variable by having an apply/lap/release system. Unless of course the real EU07 *is* set up like that, in which case hang on to your hats if standing up or drinking a cup of coffee and the driver goes into full service...

The Oerlikon FV4a driver's brake valve on the EU07 is self-lapping with a gradual reduction of the brake pipe pressure between the initial application (4.6 bars) and full service (3.5 bars) positions.

[BigVern]

What you need is for the 3 and 9 keys to operate as a graduated movement between Initial and Full Service rather than stepping all the way. That's how the brake keys work in Run 8, TSW etc. where self lapping brakes are in use.

[Bescot]

2 hours ago, BigVern said:

What you need is for the 3 and 9 keys to operate as a graduated movement between Initial and Full Service rather than stepping all the way. That's how the brake keys work in Run 8, TSW etc. where self lapping brakes are in use.

^This.

I think the problem that ALL controls in Simrail are notched, so movement of any control will just step to the next notch. That's fair for Traxx and Elf as they are like this in real life, but there should be a design change for the graduated self lapping train brake and loco brakes on EU/EP07, so that the longer you hold apply./release keys the more the brake handles move. (not too quickly though!)

Edited December 12, 2022 by Bescot