Safety Systems

[Lawliet]

Hi all! I'm interested at looking how deep the safety systems are simulated in the game. I know of SPT and Czuwak. Can anyone advise how these are supposed to work/how well they do compared to that in the sim? Any suggested places to read up on them? Googling is...Not very helpful no matter how specific I get.

Edit: Also interested in ETCS, though it's a lot easier to find information on it in English.

Edited December 20, 2022 by Lawliet

[Averrnor]

Hi there!

You can find related info in the below link. It is in polish, but I hope some translators will help 😉

https://www.transportszynowy.pl/Kolej/zabezpshp

[Kaito Kid]

About the safety systems I was wondering, can you deactivate them in game? Or how can you pass in the game a signal showing a danger aspect in case of a failure?

[Bravura Lion]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb Kaito Kid:

About the safety systems I was wondering, can you deactivate them in game? Or how can you pass in the game a signal showing a danger aspect in case of a failure?

yes you can in the settings -> Simulation - > Simple Control

[Kaito Kid]

13 minutes ago, Bravura Lion said:

yes you can in the settings -> Simulation - > Simple Control

Hmmm, I mean whilst being INSIDE the cab, not turn the system off for always. Let's say a signal doesn't open to a permissive aspect, you still need to go through it. The thing is even if the dispatcher tells you're okay to go through it, the game will teleport you back to that signal.

[SurvivorSean]

The only way is to have the substitute signal at a box.  Intemediate automatic signals can be passed.

Thanks

Sean

[Kaito Kid]

4 minutes ago, SurvivorSean said:

The only way is to have the substitute signal at a box.  Intemediate automatic signals can be passed.

Thanks

Sean

What if it doesn't open? I know about several cases where you need to disconnect the safety system to pass through the signal because it doesn't open (f.e: in case of an artificial occupation of a track, due to weather conditions), dispatcher will move the points towards your destination but it won't be able to create a route through the system.

[SurvivorSean]

I see what you mean.

Thanks

Sean

[SurvivorSean]

I know the safety system saved my behind once when I missed a signal looking at something else in another screen.  I forgot about the issues with ghost trains.  Not sure if they are simulated or not probably a bug.

Thanks

Sean

[BigVern]

As I mentioned in another thread, think there should be an option to switch off the alerter which is a PITA but keep the signalling system active.

[stronzio]

3 hours ago, Kaito Kid said:

About the safety systems I was wondering, can you deactivate them in game? Or how can you pass in the game a signal showing a danger aspect in case of a failure?

As far as my (somewhat not too in-depth) knowledge for Polish safety system goes, they will not stop you if you pass a red signal, ETCS will though (of course). Their only function is to check the driver's vigilance and/or recall his attention (depending on the function), but there's no train-stop capability

Atm you can only pass a Red showing the Sz signal, there should def be the opportunity to be authorized in some other ways, IRL you would most likely need a written order for example

[Gazz292]

i drive these 'games / sims' to be as accurate a driver as possible,
German trains have the SIFA thing where you need to release and reapply a pedal every 30 seconds,
English modern trains have the DSD button,

The polish trains seem to rely more on the drivers training than computers watching their every move (well, the EU07 does anyway, that's why i love that train)

But if having to press an alerter button every minute or so is part of driving the real train, then i will do that.

Otherwise where do you go with making the sim more arcade like? a button to press when you can't be bothered to manually operate the brake lever to stop at the station, so the train auto brakes and stops in the right place for you.

The same for starting and driving?

Do that and you now have a modern london underground driving simulator, where the 'drivers' job is to select from 4 buttons,

To start the train you press 2 buttons together, and off the train goes, adjusting it's speed automatically, stopping and re-starting at signals, and stopping in exactly the right place in the next station,
You then press the door open button (don't worry about opening the wrong side, the CDSE prevents that)
Then about 30 seconds later, you press the door close button,
And press the 2 'start' buttons, and away the train drives it's self to the nest station.


 

[Lawliet]

11 hours ago, Averrnor said:

Hi there!

You can find related info in the below link. It is in polish, but I hope some translators will help 😉

https://www.transportszynowy.pl/Kolej/zabezpshp

So after reading, SPT sounds like it's basically a Polish version of AWS, with the 'visual before aural warning' setup like SIFA. You get your warnings ahead of unclear signals and have to acknowledge them or your train goes 'nope I'm done'. Far as that goes, seems to operate well.

[Kaito Kid]

19 hours ago, stronzio said:

As far as my (somewhat not too in-depth) knowledge for Polish safety system goes, they will not stop you if you pass a red signal, ETCS will though (of course). Their only function is to check the driver's vigilance and/or recall his attention (depending on the function), but there's no train-stop capability

Atm you can only pass a Red showing the Sz signal, there should def be the opportunity to be authorized in some other ways, IRL you would most likely need a written order for example

You're confusing systems. The one you said is the deadman's switch, I'm talking about bypassing the signal safety system, in case of Poland the SPT, England AWS and Spain ASFA. If you pass a red signal, the system when going through it, will detect it and will apply the emergency brake.

[stronzio]

16 minutes ago, Kaito Kid said:

You're confusing systems. The one you said is the deadman's switch, I'm talking about bypassing the signal safety system, in case of Poland the SPT, England AWS and Spain ASFA. If you pass a red signal, the system when going through it, will detect it and will apply the emergency brake.

No, that is exactly what I meant: AFAIK Poland uses two combined safety subsystems, SHP and CA; CA should be your typical vigilance control  (= acknowledge it when requested once in a while to prove you're alive), SHP instead would "warn" you if something restrictive, like for example a Yellow, is incoming and then sounds a buzzer to recall the driver's attention, similarly to what AWS does.

The critical point is that SHP will not monitor anything else: it will not stop the train if you approach too fast/trip a red etc. from what I know, only if you fail to acknowledge the buzzer in time. (Poland also has ETCS but that's a totally different can of worms)

[alegalga98]

I'm Italian, I would not feel secure to drive here with a safety system like that, the protection is non existent, you can go trough S1 going at line speed and system don't say anything, here it's almost impossible going through a red signal, the computer calculates the curve until 30km/h 200m from the signal set at danger, then you have to respect the aspect manually,

if the calculated curve exceed 5km/h full braking is triggered

in any case the protected point stay safe, additionally if the protected point is at a shorter distance, the 200m approach speed is limited to 10km/h

[Kaito Kid]

26 minutes ago, stronzio said:

The critical point is that SHP will not monitor anything else: it will not stop the train if you approach too fast/trip a red etc. from what I know, only if you fail to acknowledge the buzzer in time. (Poland also has ETCS but that's a totally different can of worms)

Holy wonkers if that's true. At least in Spain with any of the existing safety systems be it: ASFA, ATP or FAP, if you go over a signal showing danger, the system will stop the train after or before the signal (depending on the system).

[TheDront]

34 minutes ago, Kaito Kid said:

Holy wonkers if that's true. At least in Spain with any of the existing safety systems be it: ASFA, ATP or FAP, if you go over a signal showing danger, the system will stop the train after or before the signal (depending on the system).

It's actually even worse. The SHP don't even know the state of the signal at all. The only thing the system does is checking so that the driver has acknowledged that there actually is a signal. A few hundred meters before the main signal, there is a magnet on the right side of the track. When the train passes over it, the SHP lights shows up in the cab. As long as the driver resets it, nothing more will happen. Even if the signal is red.

[ArtU4]

5 minut temu, TheDront napisał(a):

It's actually even worse. The SHP don't even know the state of the signal at all. The only thing the system does is checking so that the driver has acknowledged that there actually is a signal. A few hundred meters before the main signal, there is a magnet on the right side of the track. When the train passes over it, the SHP lights shows up in the cab. As long as the driver resets it, nothing more will happen. Even if the signal is red.

That's true. SHP is just a little more sophisticated vigilance system, nothing more. Except ETCS there are no automatic safety systems working on driver side. But there is Radiostop system (connected to SHP) which, when used, will stop everything using radio signal. And there are procedures of course 🙂 

Statistics won't say that polish railways are more dangerous than others but a true safety system is urgently needed here. The choice was ETCS and it is being implemented.