Signals and speed limits feature

[GeeForge]

I figured that actually the GUI shows the next checkpoint (passing through or stopping at), the speed limit and the next signal.

Will those informations be displayed in a panel in the cabin?

 

In italy, trains have the SSC like the picture below.

 

Or the common SCMT panel, always used in Italian trains.

Edited January 19, 2023 by GeeForge

[GoppelPL]

Look at EU07 and see if you can find any display at all 😛 The ETCS is not functional yet, and when it will, only part of the Main Railway Route (CMK) is covered with ERTMS/ETCS. The rest of the map (and most of the country really) aren't and there's no such information available to the driver.

[GeeForge]

28 minutes ago, GoppelPL said:

Look at EU07 and see if you can find any display at all 😛

The EU07 should have a timetable sheet😅 to be checked from time to time.

However thanks for the answer

[GeeForge]

I just wanted to clarify one small thing.
I was talking about is the on-board control for train safety which transmits through the on-board sub-systems the automatic repetition of the next signals, such as speed limit, red, yellow or green signals, etc.

In EU07 this system probably has not been implemented because the step by step communications happened between dispatchers and drivers.

At least in Italy, any commuter/freight that makes simple routes has this safety system which serves the driver.

In my opinion, this is a very necessary thing to implement since there is not always communication between stations controlled by hosts, and in any case along the full track between stations there are signals that should (hiding the HUD) be communicated in some way.

Instead, the ECTS system, as it has rightly been written, is only inserted on the main line since this device is mounted only on high-speed trains which are very different from the classic commuters where the other system that was explained above, in Italy, called SCMT.

We are talking about two different devices with similar functions but inserted on very different routes.

The idea is to have a graphical on-board system that show those infos just if anyone want improve the full immersive simulation (hiding the HUD)

[GoppelPL]

Naaah, we don't do that here. You just look out for the signals and read your paper schedule and you're good 🙂

[TonySmile]

Excuse me, if i hide the hud, where i can find the schedule and the signals? 

[Schyrsivochter]

Currently you can drive mostly without the right-side HUD but not entirely – e.g. sometimes there are no W27a boards for a speed limit raise. And you still need your timetable on the left. I agree that having a ‘proper’ working timetable with all the route data would be good.

Also, yeah, in Poland, apart from ETCS on a few important high-speed lines, there is no cab signalling or other safety system (SHP barely counts, it just tells you ‘there is a signal’). Drivers have to look at the lineside signals and their working timetable. Or at the train simulator’s HUD, I guess.

[GeeForge]

49 minutes ago, Schyrsivochter said:

Currently you can drive mostly without the right-side HUD but not entirely – e.g. sometimes there are no W27a boards for a speed limit raise. And you still need your timetable on the left. I agree that having a ‘proper’ working timetable with all the route data would be good.

Also, yeah, in Poland, apart from ETCS on a few important high-speed lines, there is no cab signalling or other safety system (SHP barely counts, it just tells you ‘there is a signal’). Drivers have to look at the lineside signals and their working timetable. Or at the train simulator’s HUD, I guess.

The problem is when the timetable changes for an unplanned event made by a dispatcher. 🤷‍♂️
If a dispatcher change a signal light, you could know that only if the dispatcher notify you (chat or voice), or, using the HUD

[Schyrsivochter]

Signal aspects aren’t part of the timetable. How could they be?

And what do you mean, ‘change a signal light’?

[GeeForge]

18 hours ago, Schyrsivochter said:

And what do you mean, ‘change a signal light’?

Scenario example:

Your train is routing on green signal, the next station/junction's dispatcher have difficulties with a delayed train that can't pass in time. Accordingly you would have the next signal green, but the dispatcher switched to red. How can you know that signals aren't changed? If you activate the HUD you can see the next signal changed from green to red, but on eye, without the HUD, you can't have time to brake the train 'til you see the signal.

That's why Italian train have this SCMT panel in the cabin, that shows the next signal color and speed limit.

Also on old trains, they revamped the cabin adding the screen that shows that.

[Schyrsivochter]

Well, I don’t know what kind of regulation Italy has, but in other countries, unless it’s an emergency, dispatchers are simply not allowed to revoke a signal that they’ve already cleared. Doubly so if the train it’s for has already passed the distant signal.

[Gazz292]

I guess if there's an emergency reason to put the signal back to danger, the dispatcher would maybe use the radio stop too? 

Or even talk on the radio to warn the train?

 

I know a lot of countries have all singing and dancing trains that basically drive themselves, but most trains in Poland are driven the old fashioned way, the driver's brain is the computer,
you react to the line side signals and signs appropriately, with a max speed of 125 Km/h that isn't that hard to do..... after all it worked fine for the first couple of centuries after railways were invented 😄

[GeeForge]

14 hours ago, Gazz292 said:

I guess if there's an emergency reason to put the signal back to danger, the dispatcher would maybe use the radio stop too? 

Or even talk on the radio to warn the train?

I know a lot of countries have all singing and dancing trains that basically drive themselves, but most trains in Poland are driven the old fashioned way, the driver's brain is the computer,
you react to the line side signals and signs appropriately, with a max speed of 125 Km/h that isn't that hard to do..... after all it worked fine for the first couple of centuries after railways were invented 😄

You're right.

That's is a suggestion for not implement a screen that shows those informations, but dispatchers (human and AI) have to notify the driver about the state changed for an emergency.

Looking about the problem/suggestion:

A train on route for Sosnowiec Glowny, have to pass a junction, now controlled by AI (Sosnowiec Gl. pzs R52) which switch trains for 2 routes.

Yesterday the Sosnowiec Pludniowy had a problem with 2 tracks interlocked in the same direction and the pzs R52 would not dispatch the traffic.

I was coming from Katowice Zawodzie that gave me green signal to proceed and, accordingly the timetable, I would have green signal until Sosnowiec Glowny.

With the HUD turned off (G key), you can watch on sight the next signal but if i was running at 120 km/h (not the case of the scenario above), I would have to set emergency brake when I could see the signal red instead of green.

Currently, the AI doesn't inform the driver about the change of state of the traffic signal, but an human dispatcher can.

In this situation, I advice DEVs to add the feature to notify a driver when a traffic signal change state for a unplanned situation (instead the SCMT on-board display)

[GoppelPL]

The signal can sometimes change by itself, and there's nothing you can do but apply emergency brake and pray you make it. If you don't - you get a written command that lets you continue forward. There is no funky screen in cab or any notification about the next signal - when you see it, you know what color it is.

[SurvivorSean]

From what I understand the dispatch system "runs time" when you drop a signal.  In North America you have to contact a driver and get permission to do this.  Now I know in Poland based on my observations when I change my mind the system will "run time" before allowing the route to be available.  The signal in NA would drop to red but the route would not be able to be used for a period of time "NA is 5 minutes".  In Poland I know you can also force this to bypass the timer.

The only thing I can think of would be the AI to change their mind (but they usually don't make mistakes).  I don't mean that as a joke yes the AI has issues but once those issues are resolved the AI can handle things much more efficiently than humans.  For example when you request direction change the AI almost immediately will allow it.  They are also quick to tell you no they can't when a train is set to run it.

Thanks

Sean

[GeeForge]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:39 PM, GoppelPL said:

The signal can sometimes change by itself, and there's nothing you can do but apply emergency brake and pray you make it. If you don't - you get a written command that lets you continue forward. There is no funky screen in cab or any notification about the next signal - when you see it, you know what color it is.

Since the last patch have the penality feature about red signals, my suggestion is to add the function that an AI dispatcher have to notify an incoming driver (text message) that the next signal has changed, differently from the timetable, for %reason%.

Reasons would be:

Occupied track;
Delayed departure;
Shunting;
etc...

In case of human dispather, the notification would be via voice/message calls about the problem.

[Schyrsivochter]

1 hour ago, GeeForge said:

Reasons would be:

Occupied track;
Delayed departure;
Shunting;
etc...

All three of these examples are situations where a signal will not have been cleared in the first place. That’s what the interlocking is for. It’s designed specifically to clear a signal if and only if the path is clear and is secured to remain so. If the route is not free of other vehicles, or the points are not locked in the correct position, or another route is set for a train into the same section from the opposite side, the signal box will prevent the route from being set and locked.

The only reason why a cleared signal would ever be revoked – outside of emergencies – is if the route was set in the wrong direction by accident.

[Bandit]

 

In Germany we have a timetable for every train you take over. This is called a "Buchfahrplan" (book timetable). 
This contains, for example, the maximum line speed for the respective train, where the switches are, arrival and departure times, etc.

Once as a book/paper and sometime once in electronic form ("EBuLa").

If something like this existed as a PDF, you could drive without a HUD. You simply follow the route kilometre signs.

How is that regulated in Poland?

 

[weezzah]

I haven't seen any trace of a unified dedicated software displaying timetables like the EBuLa. There might be, who knows. I think they use paper timetables and timetables displayed on tablets mostly. Here are some random links showing timetable use:

• Paper timetable in use https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WgkNK7XLs0
• Tablet at time 3:52 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kemKQb2V24A
• Dedicated tablet at time 1:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKIUE6c_pLg
• Timetable on display at time 2:20 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1_1bc2tLLZc
• Timetable on the PL forum https://forum.simrail.eu/topic/487-rozkład-jazdy/?do=findComment&comment=1951

Edited February 3, 2023 by weezzah

[Gazz292]

i was told in a past post about EBuLa's that there is a basic version in use, called ENTE or Aksel.

Bbut they are not fitted to the trains we have in SimRail atm. 

 

Edited February 4, 2023 by Gazz292

[GoppelPL]

19 godzin temu, Gazz292 napisał(a):

called ENTE or Aksel

God forbid, those are the names of the manufacturers of the worst and second to worst integrated information systems in Poland 😄 The name is SKRJ, computer timetable construction system. There are some multiple units and locos that have the information system computers that are able to display the PDF file, but most of the drivers also get their paper timetables when they come to work. It's a bit simpler than German EBuLa/Buchfahrplan, as they don't have any Asig, Esig and neutral section informations, just the regular station, post and stop names, their milage etc.

 

W dniu 3.02.2023 o 15:21, Bandit napisał(a):

If something like this existed as a PDF, you could drive without a HUD. You simply follow the route kilometre signs.

I'm honestly waiting for the day we have this as well 🙂

[weezzah]

3 hours ago, GoppelPL said:

The name is SKRJ, computer timetable construction system.

Glorified PDF viewer? 😄

I'm hoping you have a lot of track data available in Unity which can give us detailed timetables in the release version? *crossing fingers*

[Schyrsivochter]

4 hours ago, GoppelPL said:

It's a bit simpler than German EBuLa/Buchfahrplan, as they don't have any Asig, Esig and neutral section informations,

… all of which were also present in printed timetables before EBuLa was introduced in Germany.