EU07/EP07 Speedometer Inconsistency

[TheShotte]

So I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but this bug actively prevents me from disabling the speedometer on my HUD in the EU/EP07 locos. Let me demonstrate:

For maximized effect, you could save the pictures to your computer, and then open them in an image viewer so you could switch between the 2. In any case, the pictures were taken one after the other, in both pictures the HUD display 21 Km/h, but in one picture the speedometer is at 20 Km/h, and the other 22 Km/h, again, basically jumping from one position to the other. Bear in mind, my traction is off, and at this point I was essentially bleeding off speed. There is no reason for the needle to go up in that situation.

Edited December 16, 2022 by TheShotte

[Królik Uszasty]

Speedometer in EU07 is not very accurate device and it happens that value is floating a bit. Please consider this as a feature of simulator, not a bug.

[Loongeron]

3 hours ago, TheShotte said:

So I'm not sure if anyone else has noticed this, but this bug actively prevents me from disabling the speedometer on my HUD in the EU/EP07 locos. Let me demonstrate:

For maximized effect, you could save the pictures to your computer, and then open them in an image viewer so you could switch between the 2. In any case, the pictures were taken one after the other, in both pictures the HUD display 21 Km/h, but in one picture the speedometer is at 20 Km/h, and the other 22 Km/h, again, basically jumping from one position to the other. Bear in mind, my traction is off, and at this point I was essentially bleeding off speed. There is no reason for the needle to go up in that situation.

This is a speed gauge, a mechanical device, so there is such an error.

[Gazz292]

i figured this is programmed like that, all part of the realism of driving a old tech train 👍 

Have others noticed the converter current needle jumps and reads higher / lower when the compressor starts up and shuts off, again stuff we don't really see in other train driving sims... ditto with the flies on the windscreen that need the washers operating to wipe them away, wipers alone leave them behind.

:

Usually a speedometer is 'calibrated' to under read your speed tho'. 

Check this with your cars speedometer, when your cars speedo needle points at 70mph, if you check sat-nav speed, you will be doing 60-something... and pretty much all cars built in the last 20 years use the cars ABS signal for speed reading, the speedo needle is moved by a stepper motor,
So it can be set to accurately point to the correct speed in the software of the car's ECM,

But most countries have laws that speedometers can over read by upto 10%, but should not under read, i.e. they can show you doing 100 mph when you are really doing 90, but are not allowed to show you doing 99 when you are really doing 100.... tho usually there is something like a 1% allowance for under reading....

...this is from back when a speedometer was a mechanical devise, with a flexible cable transferring rotational motion from the gearbox / axle, and the drive to the speedo needle was by magnetic flux... a magnet rotated constantly when you were moving, and a metal cup positioned to sit over the magnet that the needle was connected to moved in a 'linear' fashion depending on the speed of the rotation magnet.

 

Edited December 16, 2022 by Gazz292

[stronzio]

Also, if you notice when you're running at 120 km/h indicated you are actually overspeeding on the hud, such kind of "measuring errors" is normal on Hasler speedometers and other similar mechanical devices, it also happens on modern electronic systems sometimes 

On a funny note, some older speedometers were even worse, bordering unusability in extreme cases (check Russian stuff for example)

[VVER-1200]

Then the teloc's indicated speed should be used to get penalties as this feature would require the HUD to be on at all times.
If this is a simulator then you should be able to have HUDs off.

[Gazz292]

yes, i agree that the speed penalty system should be changed slightly, to operate off the in cab indicated speed,

Not that i care about the points i'm earning or losing, i'll leave the earning of points / medals / awards to the games,
 

[TheShotte]

1 hour ago, Królik Uszasty said:

Speedometer in EU07 is not very accurate device and it happens that value is floating a bit. Please consider this as a feature of simulator, not a bug.

1 hour ago, Loongeron said:

This is a speed gauge, a mechanical device, so there is such an error.

Wow. That's kind of badass. Just not used to the intricacies of SimRail, and boy are there a few. The way the suspension moves on the various trains going over switches, the fact that you have to actually use your washer to clean the bugs off the windshield, the way the trains feel when operating them. Just great. This sim really has potential.

 

 

22 minutes ago, stronzio said:

Also, if you notice when you're running at 120 km/h indicated you are actually overspeeding on the hud, such kind of "measuring errors" is normal on Hasler speedometers and other similar mechanical devices, it also happens on modern electronic systems sometimes 

On a funny note, some older speedometers were even worse, bordering unusability in extreme cases (check Russian stuff for example)

Not necessarily. I use the Tempomat on the EN76/EN96 all the time when I'm running them. For the most part, if it's set to say 120 km/h (your speed limit), it will be white. If you will be going downhill or something, and the train has to ride the brakes a bit, it might jump into the yellow. The only difference being between the white and yellow is that it's white when you're going 120.0-120.5, 120.51-121 will be in yellow. The HUD speedometer readout is rounded down (so it doesn't show 121 km/h when we actually hit 120.56.

[stronzio]

Just now, TheShotte said:

Not necessarily. I use the Tempomat on the EN76/EN96 all the time when I'm running them. For the most part, if it's set to say 120 km/h (your speed limit), it will be white. If you will be going downhill or something, and the train has to ride the brakes a bit, it might jump into the yellow. The only difference being between the white and yellow is that it's white when you're going 120.0-120.5, 120.51-121 will be in yellow. The HUD speedometer readout is rounded down (so it doesn't show 121 km/h when we actually hit 120.56.

I was referring to the EU07, the ENs are accurate enough. If you go @~120 km/h on the EU07, the HUD will show 125

 

26 minutes ago, VVER-1200 said:

Then the teloc's indicated speed should be used to get penalties as this feature would require the HUD to be on at all times.
If this is a simulator then you should be able to have HUDs off.

I agree, I think the sim has some tolerance before giving a penalty so at least reduce the simulated error % (the value of which will increase with speed), or maybe make it negative (actual speed < indicated)

[Gazz292]

i think in SimRail you don't start getting points taken off until you're doing 124kph in a 120 stretch,  it may even have a time limit to allow you to get the speed under control before it starts giving the penalties too,  i.e. a few seconds for you to realise you're speeding and correct it.

[TheShotte]

25 minutes ago, stronzio said:

I was referring to the EU07, the ENs are accurate enough. If you go @~120 km/h on the EU07, the HUD will show 125

What? The HUD is always accurate in terms of speed, regardless of loco/train. It sure as hell doesn't show 125 when you're going ~120. I think you may be confusing HUD with the actual speedometer.

[TheShotte]

24 minutes ago, Gazz292 said:

i think in SimRail you don't start getting points taken off until you're doing 124kph in a 120 stretch,  it may even have a time limit to allow you to get the speed under control before it starts giving the penalties too,  i.e. a few seconds for you to realise you're speeding and correct it.

No, I'm pretty sure I've seen it saying something along the lines of "-1XP for going over Speed Limit" in top left corner right after you start going 121km/h (in a 120 km/h zone).

Edited December 16, 2022 by TheShotte

[stronzio]

33 minutes ago, TheShotte said:

What? The HUD is always accurate in terms of speed, regardless of loco/train. It sure as hell doesn't show 125 when you're going ~120. I think you may be confusing HUD with the actual speedometer.

The hud is accurate, the speedometer isn't, and that's exactly what I said (I guess?)

[Gazz292]

i've just deliberately drove over the speed limit of 120kph... and i could sit at upto 123kph for ever it seemed and not get any points taken away,
it felt like they only get taken away after i get to 124kph, and only after i've been sat at that speed for a little time.

[TheShotte]

4 minutes ago, Gazz292 said:

i've just deliberately drove over the speed limit of 120kph... and i could sit at upto 123kph for ever it seemed and not get any points taken away,
it felt like they only get taken away after i get to 124kph, and only after i've been sat at that speed for a little time.

And you were driving the EU07 yeah? Maybe it's counted differently in each loco?

[TheFloxiCz]

This is normal. Some old locomotives in Czech Republic use this speedometer and it's even very inaccurate in real life. So it would be probably based on real life.

[Gazz292]

yup, i only drive the EU07... i like mine older 😄

 

Go back to the steam days, speedometers were only fitted in right at the end in hte UK (late 1960's)
sure you could work out your speed by counting the distance posts or telegraph poles as they went by, but it was usually up to the drivers judgement to stick to a safe speed.

There's a story in a book (A loco mans log) about speedometers being fitted to the steam locos, and suddenly all the trains were running late,

Turns out that the trains had been running way over the posted limits forever,
Now the drivers could see the speeds they were doing, and actually slowing down to 40 for a posted 40mph junction... instead of just 'rubbing the brakes a little' for a 40 limit, and applying them for a few seconds for a 25 limit....
the timetable was useless.

The solution... instead of re-writing the timetables, the speedometer drive cables were disconnected, and services went back to normal.

 

 

[VVER-1200]

58 minutes ago, stronzio said:

The hud is accurate, the speedometer isn't, and that's exactly what I said (I guess?)

But the problem is when you don't want to use the HUD and enjoy the proper simulation, you would get penalties for going the teloc's speed (which is around 125 here)  

--Let's say you have a 125 km/h speed limit and you are going with 125 as the teloc shows but because of the error you would get penalty

Edited December 16, 2022 by VVER-1200

[Gazz292]

i'm assuming the speedometer is reading how it does in the real EU07?

therefore for those of us who want to drive with the HUD off (which i want to do once i've learnt the signalling and signs better) we can do what a real train driver would do:

Remember that the speedo under reads, so make sure we are doing ~117 in a 120 block, and ~120 in a 125kph block.

[TheShotte]

1 hour ago, Gazz292 said:

i'm assuming the speedometer is reading how it does in the real EU07?

therefore for those of us who want to drive with the HUD off (which i want to do once i've learnt the signalling and signs better) we can do what a real train driver would do:

Remember that the speedo under reads, so make sure we are doing ~117 in a 120 block, and ~120 in a 125kph block.

Yeah pretty much just stay ~5 kmh below limit which is what real drivers tend to do anyway.

[VVER-1200]

No I don't think the driver would start calculating their speeds no.

If the speed limit is 125 the driver will go 125, the teloc(speedometer) is registrating 125 on a paper so you can't even prove he was going faster than that ergo no penalty should be applied for going the teloc's 125

 

[Królik Uszasty]

Summing up - small oscilation is feature. Penalties and difference between speedometer and gui is a bug, but it should be fixed in yesterday's patch.

[TheShotte]

22 hours ago, Gazz292 said:

i've just deliberately drove over the speed limit of 120kph... and i could sit at upto 123kph for ever it seemed and not get any points taken away,
it felt like they only get taken away after i get to 124kph, and only after i've been sat at that speed for a little time.

So I think I've more or less figured it out. How much you can go over the speed limit is decided by the locomotive's difficulty to drive. IE - EN76/EN96 will start penalizing you as soon as you go 1 km/h over speed limit, whereas the EP07 won't start doing it until you're like ~4-5 km/h over.