Could we get an option to adjust the strength of the dynamic lighting?

[weezzah]

Would be great to have the option to adjust the dynamic lighting in SimRail because with the way it is now the graphics tend to get washed out when inside enclosed cabs like in the EN76.

- - - - - EDIT - - - - -

For easier access to other examples in this thread the direct links to them are available here:

• Over-exposure screenshots and description 1
• Over-exposure screenshots and description 2
• Video showcasing TrackIR and over-exposure 😎
• Screenshots from Katowice at 19:00 hrs
• Video of sky to ground exposure

- - - - - - - - - - - - -

At noon, notice here how the sky is white, there's no definition of the clouds, and there's a white tint on the track, trees and the grass:

It gets really washed out outside when you look down. The brightness on the desk is also worth noting:

In terms of color and shading I'd rather see something closer to this from the inside of the cab. Just clear, colorful, high contrast, and with no white tint:

Here's an example of when the sun is low. Notice the difference in brightness as the camera is pitched down. Also, signs get washed out and you have to pitch the camera up to see what's on them:

I think dynamic lighting can be great for cinematic effect, but I feel it doesn't go well with train sims because reading the outside environment is something you do 99% of the time. And if the outside environment is constantly tinted white... it just doesn't look right.

In the real world we can shift our eyes between looking at vehicle interior things and looking at the outside world quite easily, and our eyes will adapt rather quickly seeing the world in full contrast. In other words, we won't experience looking at washed out graphics IRL 🙂

Edited March 3, 2023 by weezzah

[Thistle Whistle]

Totally agree and well written post to cover the issues with this.  If we had the option to turn it off, I'd be turning it off. 👍

[lDestinyl]

On 2/27/2023 at 3:30 PM, weezzah said:

Would be great to have the option to adjust the dynamic lighting in SimRail because with the way it is now the graphics tend to get washed out when inside enclosed cabs like in the EN76.

At noon, notice here how the sky is white, there's no definition of the clouds, and there's a white tint on the track, trees and the grass:

It gets really washed out outside when you look down. The brightness on the desk is also worth noting:

In terms of color and shading I'd rather see something closer to this from the inside of the cab. Just clear, colorful, high contrast, and with no white tint:

Here's an example of when the sun is low. Notice the difference in brightness as the camera is pitched down. Also, signs get washed out and you have to pitch the camera up to see what's on them:

I think dynamic lighting can be great for cinematic effect, but I feel it doesn't go well with train sims because reading the outside environment is something you do 99% of the time. And if the outside environment is constantly tinted white... it just doesn't look right.

In the real world we can shift our eyes between looking at vehicle interior things and looking at the outside world quite easily, and our eyes will adapt rather quickly seeing the world in full contrast. In other words, we won't experience looking at washed out graphics IRL 🙂

I would argue otherwise. There are situations in the real world where the light is downright blinding. I mean, this is the simulation, sometimes it's just not ideal.... On the other hand, I'm glad the sun finally has some clarity. 

Edited February 28, 2023 by lDestinyl

[weezzah]

What I'm referring to when I put dynamic lighting in the title is over-exposure, which is currently more camera-like than how a human eye behaves. Don't get me wrong, I love being blinded by the sun in simulation games 😄, but it better be for the right reason. The essence is I'd like to see the SimRail world through human eyes from inside the cab, and not through a camera lens which has over-exposure issues.

When looking inside the cab the world outside becomes brighter, and in this case over-exposed (I've purposely put the blinds down too):

But when looking mostly through the window allowing the "camera" to adapt to the outside world, it looks normal again:

The last screenshot also shows how "blinded" I really am when looking outside. This is how much "blinded" I want to be from inside the cab. This is why I want to have an option to adjust the camera exposure effect/dynamic lighting and have it nearly turned off.

Also, with motion tracking devices like TrackIR the shift in brightness is really noticeable.

I hope that's clear enough 🙂

[Bandit]

This is probably the problem why the signs shine so brightly and cannot be read well at daytime.
At night you can read them quite well.

[Thistle Whistle]

1 hour ago, Bandit said:

This is probably the problem why the signs shine so brightly and cannot be read well at daytime.
At night you can read them quite well.

Another very good point!

Also the point about TrackIR is another very good reason why this really needs to be optional.

I too want as much realism as we can get regarding lighting, but this dynamic auto HDR weirdness isn't the way to do it, in my opinion.

[lDestinyl]

6 hours ago, weezzah said:

What I'm referring to when I put dynamic lighting in the title is over-exposure, which is currently more camera-like than how a human eye behaves. Don't get me wrong, I love being blinded by the sun in simulation games 😄, but it better be for the right reason. The essence is I'd like to see the SimRail world through human eyes from inside the cab, and not through a camera lens which has over-exposure issues.

When looking inside the cab the world outside becomes brighter, and in this case over-exposed (I've purposely put the blinds down too):

But when looking mostly through the window allowing the "camera" to adapt to the outside world, it looks normal again:

The last screenshot also shows how "blinded" I really am when looking outside. This is how much "blinded" I want to be from inside the cab. This is why I want to have an option to adjust the camera exposure effect/dynamic lighting and have it nearly turned off.

Also, with motion tracking devices like TrackIR the shift in brightness is really noticeable.

I hope that's clear enough 🙂

I didn't follow this so much. Since I get home from work later, I usually play at night. As an option in the settings, yes, but don't let them remove it from the game. If it's 12:00 in the summer (that's how the game is set up now) and it's clear, it should match the first picture.

[Gazz292]

i too am not a fan of these camera effects,  especially lens flare one... where it's simulating light bouncing between the multiple elements in a camera lens, 

We are supposed to be simulating driving a train as a human which has eyes to see with, not an Ai bot that has cameras to 'see with'

[weezzah]

1 hour ago, lDestinyl said:

If it's 12:00 in the summer (that's how the game is set up now) and it's clear, it should match the first picture.

Okay, so hear me out, this is what it looks like when standing outside of the train with 2 feet in the tracks looking in the same direction:

Notice how the above screenshot is not over-exposed, and it's what I'm expecting to see from inside the cab too, as I mentioned earlier.

But because of the camera effect, the outside view can get washed out like this from inside of the cab:

The world doesn't turn white when you go inside a vehicle in real life. Do you see what I mean about over-exposure now?

By the way, these screenshots have been taken at the same time of day and at the same location and are unmodified.

1 hour ago, lDestinyl said:

but don't let them remove it from the game

Agreed, we have all different preferences and it should be an adjustable option in my opinion 🙂

[lDestinyl]

1 minute ago, weezzah said:

Okay, so hear me out, this is what it looks like when standing outside of the train with 2 feet in the tracks looking in the same direction:

Notice how the above screenshot is not over-exposed, and it's what I'm expecting to see from inside the cab too, as I mentioned earlier.

But because of the camera effect, the outside view can get washed out like this from inside of the cab:

The world doesn't turn white when you go inside a vehicle in real life. Do you see what I mean about over-exposure now?

By the way, these screenshots have been taken at the same time of day and at the same location and are unmodified.

Agreed, we have all different preferences and it should be an adjustable option in my opinion 🙂

Yeah, like this. 😄 I don't get off the train that often, so I didn't even notice the effect.

[weezzah]

Finally, I managed to express it the right way, only took 3 posts 😄 sorry for being vague initially

And thanks for questioning my posts, made me see things more clearly 👍

 

[Gazz292]

now it makes perfect sense with those examples 🙂 

If anything shouldn't the view from in the cab be darker, as windscreen glass cuts out most of the UV, and in modern trains are usually tinted slightly. 

[weezzah]

Yeah, maybe there is a slight darkness present when comparing this screenshot:

With the one from outside:

Maybe not?

The glass looks lot darker from the outside than from the inside, that's for sure:

 

[weezzah]

On 3/1/2023 at 9:27 AM, weezzah said:

Also, with motion tracking devices like TrackIR the shift in brightness is really noticeable.

Just to back up this statement I made a video with me using TrackIR to showcase the over-exposure happening outside 😎 

 

[weezzah]

Figured I'd post these two from tonight's drive as reference. Kind of a similar situation to the EN76/96 cabs. Here I'm standing on a platform at Katowice station at around 19:00 hrs with the sun behind me hitting the buildings over there. I think this looks nice:

And when pitching the view down it gets really bright:

I feel the max brightness could be toned down a bit in this setting

[Kaito Kid]

3 minutes ago, weezzah said:

Figured I'd post these two from tonight's drive as reference. Kind of a similar situation to the EN76/96 cabs. Here I'm standing on a platform at Katowice station at around 19:00 hrs with the sun behind me hitting the buildings over there. I think this looks nice:

And when pitching the view down it gets really bright:

I feel the max brightness could be toned down a bit in this setting

I think it needs to be toned up in the top image though, maybe a combination of the 2 for the lower one, and a bit brighter of the 2 combined for the upper one.

[weezzah]

It definitely needs a calibration

[lDestinyl]

40 minutes ago, weezzah said:

Figured I'd post these two from tonight's drive as reference. Kind of a similar situation to the EN76/96 cabs. Here I'm standing on a platform at Katowice station at around 19:00 hrs with the sun behind me hitting the buildings over there. I think this looks nice:

And when pitching the view down it gets really bright:

I feel the max brightness could be toned down a bit in this setting

The overall lighting sometimes doesn't match what's in the sky. I think that's something that's going to have to be addressed. Otherwise, when you're looking from a dark place to a light place, it should be slightly overexposed. 

[weezzah]

As a camera effect, yep, but not nuclear blast over exposed 😎

[lDestinyl]

52 minutes ago, weezzah said:

As a camera effect, yep, but not nuclear blast over exposed 😎

This effect is what I meant. No need for a camera, that's how the eye works.

Edited March 2, 2023 by lDestinyl

[weezzah]

Agreed, eye adaptation between light and dark exists 🙂

But to take this back to the cab again and to expand on something I wrote earlier:

On 2/27/2023 at 3:30 PM, weezzah said:

In the real world we can shift our eyes between looking at vehicle interior things and looking at the outside world quite easily, and our eyes will adapt rather quickly seeing the world in full contrast.

The thing is the game engine does not know what our eyes are looking at on screen. For that reason alone the dynamic lighting in a game engine will never look right when in enclosed spaces, especially when your eyes frequently change between looking at the inside and outside of a cab. That's an important point to understand why dynamic lighting inside a cab can be toned way down, to the point of almost non-existent.

When inside a cab you can have equal amounts of cab interior and outside world visible on the screen. And if the dynamic light range is large, you end up with a weird compromise or average of brightness levels in the cab that disregards what your eyes are looking at completely.

*Just had an epiphany, with the eye tracking hardware/software that exists nowadays a game engine could in fact know what your eyes are looking at, and then apply dynamic lighting accordingly... huh, wonder if anyone has ever tried that 😄

[lDestinyl]

49 minutes ago, weezzah said:

Agreed, eye adaptation between light and dark exists 🙂

But to take this back to the cab again and to expand on something I wrote earlier:

The thing is the game engine does not know what our eyes are looking at on screen. For that reason alone the dynamic lighting in a game engine will never look right when in enclosed spaces, especially when your eyes frequently change between looking at the inside and outside of a cab. That's an important point to understand why dynamic lighting inside a cab can be toned way down, to the point of almost non-existent.

When inside a cab you can have equal amounts of cab interior and outside world visible on the screen. And if the dynamic light range is large, you end up with a weird compromise or average of brightness levels in the cab that disregards what your eyes are looking at completely.

*Just had an epiphany, with the eye tracking hardware/software that exists nowadays a game engine could in fact know what your eyes are looking at, and then apply dynamic lighting accordingly... huh, wonder if anyone has ever tried that 😄

It could be done, but Tobii is used by about 5% of people, including me. It would be great, but I doubt it.

[weezzah]

26 minutes ago, lDestinyl said:

Tobii is used by about 5% of people

Yeah, it could end up in the tech demo category, or become a new selling point for Tobii.. Eye Tracking Dynamic Range ETDR ™

[lDestinyl]

 

[Jasonic]

Totally agree, this was mentioned a few times in the playtest as well, I wish there was an option to tone it down as it spoils it a bit for me seeing everything washed out and the cab too bright, and when it is raining heavy it should go darker but stays bright.

I understand the devs are concentrating on bug fixing but hope they can look at this at some point.